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Doctor X · 01-11-2004, 12:38 AM

Indeed.

In the "Song of the Sea" sequence of "Crossing the Sea of Reeds/Destruction" stories, I believe there is a "YHWH versus Sea Monster" story that is very similar to the Marduk story.

--J.D.

Doctor X · 01-11-2004, 12:46 AM

Here is the quote from Westermann:

Quote:

This background [Other creation myths that involve separation of heavens from earth.--Ed.] makes it worthwhile considering the thesis that the Hebrew word for creation by God, Aleph-Resh-Bet [Westermann gives the Hebrew right-to-left.--Ed.], has the original basic meaning of "divide" or "separate," E. Dantinne, "Creation et Separation," Le Museon, 74 (1961) 441-451. He begins with the passages Josh 17:15, 18; Ezek 23:47, . . where the verb mean "cut off" or "cut in pieces." While the new lexicons recognize another root, Gesenius in the Thesaurus and in the dictionary of 1883 had proposed a development in meaning from the concrete "separate, divide" to the more abstract "create." "To express the idea of creating . . . the ancient Hebrews used a word associated with the idea of separation which is so often explicitly mentioned in the narrative of creation," p. 446.

this is from his Genesis: An Introduction, Fortress Press, 34-35.

I had sent it to another poster some time ago. I believe I have the Hebrew correct--sorry book is at another place.

--J.D.

spin · 01-11-2004, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
In the "Song of the Sea" sequence of "Crossing the Sea of Reeds/Destruction" stories, I believe there is a "YHWH versus Sea Monster" story that is very similar to the Marduk story.

There's a lot of it about. In Ugarit the chaos dragon is called Lotan, a name which is a cognate of Leviathan and one should check out Isaiah 27:1 for an almost exact replication of a Ugaritic statement about Lotan:

On that day the Lord with his cruel and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will kill the dragon that is in the sea.

Then there's another name, Rahab. Check out Ps 89:9-10 or Isaiah 51:9,

Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon? Was it not you who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep

The water dragon and its battle with the god is quite a common trope in Hebrew literature.

spin

Dean Anderson · 01-11-2004, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spin
Yes, indeed, it seems like God created the cosmos out of the waters. How does the dry world of the second creation fit into this? It doesn't of course. It's a different story.

Am I correct in thinking that this second creation story is also stolen (er, I mean 'adapted') from the Sumerians?

Doctor X · 01-11-2004, 04:59 PM

It appears so.

I do not have the reference infront of me--Kramer's work on "First" in history by the Sumerians--but he explains the basis for Eden--even located in the same place. He also explains the source for the "rib."

--J.D.

spin · 01-11-2004, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pervy Hobbit Fancier
Am I correct in thinking that this second creation story is also stolen (er, I mean 'adapted') from the Sumerians?

Stolen? No. Many of the theological and mythological materials were shared culture by various groups throughout the fertile crescent.

More closely related materials in which textual connections can be made are a different situation. The first Genesis account suggests someone's literary knowledge in its development. Isaiah 27:1 suggests borrowing from sources which adhere to Ugaritic traditions. (I can't see a direct link between Ugaritic and Hebrew: there's too much of a time gap between them.)

spin

EGGO · 01-11-2004, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos
But dust is dust is dust and all that keeps your dust together is the revised image of God after which man is re-created.

*looks at his skin cells*

Oh I see how my dust is kept together now...I was told in biology that when cells hit each other when multiplying, they basically stop unless it's cancer, BUT NOW I SEE!

01-11-2004, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EGGO
*looks at his skin cells*

Oh I see how my dust is kept together now...I was told in biology that when cells hit each other when multiplying, they basically stop unless it's cancer, BUT NOW I SEE!

Ornry little things are'nt they? They seem to have a mind of their own.

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01-11-2004, 12:38 AM	#11
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Indeed. In the "Song of the Sea" sequence of "Crossing the Sea of Reeds/Destruction" stories, I believe there is a "YHWH versus Sea Monster" story that is very similar to the Marduk story. --J.D.

01-11-2004, 04:59 PM	#15
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	It appears so. I do not have the reference infront of me--Kramer's work on "First" in history by the Sumerians--but he explains the basis for Eden--even located in the same place. He also explains the source for the "rib." --J.D.

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