Vorkosigan

Richard Carrier's latest Jewish Law, the Burial of Jesus, and the Third Day is a worthy addition to any library, erudite yet clear, containing interesting ideas, useful information, and especially, the noteworthy observation that the idea of a "third day" is inherent in the practices of 1C CE Judaism....

• "...several passages in the Midrash Rabbah, which tie into the Mishnah, suggest a third-day motif could have been latent throughout a Jewish understanding of the dead. These laws are especially relevant to the passion narrative of Jesus, possibly inspiring the very idea that he was raised 'on the third day'..."

This is quite a find. Great work, Richard!

Carrier's argument that Joseph buried the body in a temporary grave while awaiting a more permanent arrangement hinges in part on the timing of the events in Mark.

• This last statement is supported by the Gospel stories. Mark states that Jesus died shortly after three in the afternoon (the ninth hour, when the Temple sacrifices were typically given, cf. Josephus AJ 14.65), and Joseph asked for the body within some hours of that, right before the Sabbath began.[19]

Recently, Mark Goodacre has summarized arguments in a working paper here for the view that the schedule of Mark 15 is based on its use as a liturgy.

• "All that Amos 8.9 is able to explain is, at best, one element in the story: the darkness at midday. But this time reference is one of many in the Passion Narrative and they all have one thing in common: they happen at three hour intervals. The darkness that comes over the earth at 12 lasts three hours until 3 p.m., when Jesus dies (15.33-4). Before the darkness begins, Jesus has already been on the cross for three hours, since 9 a.m. (15.25). Before that, Jesus was brought before Pilate at dawn, 6 a.m. (15.1, ????). Nor does the pattern stop there. There appears to be something like a twenty-four hour framework, broken up neatly into three hour segments. Thus, if we imagine the Last Supper taking place at 6 p.m. (14.17, "then it was evening . . ."), Jesus and the disciples would then go to Gethsemane at 9 p.m., Jesus would be arrested at midnight, and Peter denies Jesus during the Jewish trial at 3 a.m., cockcrow (14.72)."

He then goes on to explain, citing Mark 13:35-37, which shows that

• "The text itself appears to be drawing attention to the three hour pattern, alerting the bright reader to what is to come. And though an explanation has been put forward separately by three different scholars, a Canadian (Philip Carrington) in the 1950s, an Englishman (Michael Goulder) in the 1970s, and a Frenchman (Etienne Trocme) in the 1980s, it is still hardly known at all in mainstream scholarship. These three scholars claim that the liturgy is the only thing that would make sense of this. What is happening, they suggest, is that the early Christians were holding their own annual celebration of the events of the Passion at the Jewish Passover, remembered as roughly the time of Jesus' death. While other Jews were celebrating Passover, Christian Jews held a twenty-four hour vigil in which they retold and relived the events surrounding Jesus' arrest and death, from (what modern Christians would call) Maundy Thursday at 6 p.m. to Good Friday at 6 p.m. Perhaps Mark's account of the Passion, with its heavy referencing of Scripture, its regular time notes, was itself influenced by such a liturgical memory of the Passion."

This argument would significantly weaken the view that there is any history anywhere in this process, undercutting support for Carrier's argument that Joseph buried Jesus in a temporary grave.

Vernon Robbins, in The Reversed Contextualization of Psalm 22 in the Markan Crucifixion: A Socio-Rhetorical Analysis has argued that Mark 15 is a five-part construction on kingship, with Jesus as the king who is recognized ironically by Pilate, mocked as king, nailed to the cross as king, recognized by the centurion as a son of God (a True King), and then buried by someone who was
awaiting the kingdom (I should add that this caps a gospel whose major message is that the kingdom of God has come). This would be one of the many five part structures in Mark, and since the Attic play came in five acts....another angle that supports liturgy over against history. In fact, since I read Robbins' article I've been itching to reconstruct Mark as a series of 5-act plays/liturgies meant to be performed during the Passion Week, but I haven't got around to it yet.

Vorkosigan

Chili

Very impressive but I would say here that darkness at high noon is to be expected when the ego that is illuminated by the light of common day is about to die.

While they may be celebrated at roughly the same time of the year, Easter is just opposite to Passover in that with Easter the purgation period (Purgatory) ends with the death and resurrection of Jesus while Passover is when the purgation period begins with the birth of Christ into the mind of man to make him son of man = son of man in the image of God. This is when the Jews were delivered from slavery and became known as the children of Israel = sons of Israel in the image of man.

The eight days of rest during Passover corresponds with the lost identity of the enslaved Joseph until Epiphany returned to him with a new outlook on life -- which is about the time that Joseph began to carve is prior life into a tomb.

To clearly identify the darkness at high noon I should add that Christmas is celebrated for two days to indicate that the light of common day did not appear in the life of Joseph who had exhausted the vanity that Lucifer was pointing at ... which is why Christ is always born at the darkest point in life and that can be on any day of the week.

Opposite this is Easter which is also celebrated for two days as if the light of common day was no longer needed on the seventh day of the week which is Sunday because evening never followed on the seventh day in Gen.1, nor is the light of common day needed in Rev.22:5 ("the night shall be no more") where Revelation comes full circle with Gen.1

tellgryn

Sorry Vorkosigan,
But Richard's book while good, he doesn't fully understand the Jewish Holidays, at least he has an understanding of a Jewish day, which unlike the today were a day and a night make a day ie 12 midnight to 12 midnight, under Jewish law a night and a day make a day ie 6pm until 6pm.
Jesus was crucified on the 13th of Nisan, a Wednesday and was in the tome by the Roman curfew in place that evening as the Passover was on the 14th of Nissan. Passover is a high Sabbath and holy day.
Also the resurrection takes place at 6pm on Saturday the 16th of Nissan, which is just after the regular Saturday Sabbath.

Unless one understands all the laws and holy days and prophecies of the old testament it is very hard to write a book on the subject, Richard's work will add to the knowledge of the time frame in question, but until the old myth of a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday mourning go by the wayside, then the prophecies of Christ in the old testament and his fullfillment of the law and prophecies will be questioned forever.

Vorkosigan

I am sure Richard will be greatly comforted by your affirmation that he understands the Jewish day.

How did you calculate this?

Carrier wrote an article...which you should probably read before criticizing.

How does a Wednesday crucifixion fulfill the law and prophecies better than a Friday one?

Vorkosigan

Notsri

Tellgryn, none of the gospels allow for this chronology. Both Matthew (26:17) and Mark (14:12) tell us that Jesus and the disciples prepared the final passover meal "on the first day of Unleavened Bread," which could only refer to either Nisan 14 or 15; the 13th is already excluded at this point. Mark (ibid.) and Luke (22:7), however, clarify that it was the day on which the passover lambs were slaughtered, narrowing our choices down to just one day, 14 Nisan, of course (Ex. 12:6). This in fact means, then, that Jesus was crucified on the 15th. John, on the other hand, from the earliest days, has been thought to conflict with the above, placing Jesus' crucifixion on the 14th. There is at least one way, though, that I'm aware of anyway, that John can be fairly well harmonized with the above chronology; I won't go into that right now, though. Anyway, hope this clarifies some things.

Regards,
Notsri

gregor2

And until apologists really read criticism and the bible, we're doomed to repeat ourselved ad infinitum.