Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tao of Pooh · 03-21-2006, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

The word El can mean God (and was also used for a specific Canaanite deity), however, there is no female ending "ohim". In fact, the ending "im" is the plural part and it is masculine. If it were feminine it would end in "ot" or "oth".

Well, I won't put it like that, but....

Then I guess I was just typing outta my ass

It was a vague memory of something I read somewhere so I'm not surprised I got it screwed up. Or maybe I got it right and whoever wrote it had it screwed up? Yeah, I like that excuse better.
I was robbed!

Mel Gibson's remake of The Life of Brian wasn't nearly as funny.

Sheshbazzar · 03-21-2006, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Further, the author of Isaiah 45 was definitely pissed off at the author of Genesis 1 about something.

Just read.

Genesis 1:1~2

In the beginning The Elohim created the heavens and the earth.

Now the earth was a waste and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the watery deep …

Isaiah 45:18

This is what Yahweh says,

the one who created the sky –

he is the real “Elohim,”

the one who formed the earth and made it;

he established it,

he did not create it “a waste,”

he formed it to be inhabited –

“I am Yahweh, I have no peer.”

In what version of the Bible did you find these verses rendered as above?

Loomis · 03-21-2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

In what version of the Bible did you find these verses rendered as above?

Most of my translation comes from NetBible, but I restored Yahweh’s name and used Elohim to make my point.

How’s this?

Isaiah 45:18

For this is what Yahweh says,

the one who created the sky –

he is the true Elohim,

the one who formed the earth and made it;

he established it,

he did not create it unformed, (Strong's 08414 – also at Gen 1:2)

he formed it to be inhabited –

“I am the Yahweh, I have no peer.”

IonMic · 03-21-2006, 12:27 PM

Genesis 1:1-2 KJV
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Isaiah 45:18 KJV
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Loomis what bible are you using are you sure its not the Jehovah Witness one or something?

Anat · 03-21-2006, 01:06 PM

Loomis is pointing out that in hebrew Isaiah 45 uses the same words that Genesis 1 uses. In Genesis 1:2 'vehaaretz hayta tohu vabohu', whereas Isaiah 45:18 says 'lo tohu braah'.
Genesis 1:2 says that the earth was 'tohu' whereas isaiah 45:18 objects that it wasn't. And now you can nitpick whether tohu is supposed to mean waste, unformed or the name of an Ugaritic deity.

Sheshbazzar · 03-21-2006, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Loomis is pointing out that in hebrew Isaiah 45 uses the same words that Genesis 1 uses. In Genesis 1:2 'vehaaretz hayta tohu vabohu', whereas Isaiah 45:18 says 'lo tohu braah'.
Genesis 1:2 says that the earth was 'tohu' whereas isaiah 45:18 objects that it wasn't. And now you can nitpick whether tohu is supposed to mean waste, unformed or the name of an Ugaritic deity.

Loomis 'recomposed' the verses to force fit them to his own theology, rendering them in a fashion that is NOT supported by the translation provided by the "NetBible" or by any other well known or accepted source, again he is attempting to "twist the Scriptures" to support his own views.
Except Isaiah 45:18 be forced and twisted as Loomis is attempting (and you are here abetting), it DOES NOT contradict Genesis 1:2.
The correct sense of Isaiah 45:18 is properly conveyed in virtually every well known and accepted Bible, by all REAL Bible translators.
Loomis, who cannot even read Hebrew, had to pervert the actual translation and reading of the NetBible to force it into a conformance with his ideas.
"tohu" occurs twenty times in Scripture, ("canonical" books) and in virtually every single instance can be rendered by the word emptiness, there are in fact no verses that demand it to be rendered as "a waste".

Loomis · 03-21-2006, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Loomis is pointing out that in hebrew Isaiah 45 uses the same words that Genesis 1 uses. In Genesis 1:2 'vehaaretz hayta tohu vabohu', whereas Isaiah 45:18 says 'lo tohu braah'.
Genesis 1:2 says that the earth was 'tohu' whereas isaiah 45:18 objects that it wasn't.

Yep. Thanks.

If Deutero-Isaiah isn’t talking about “The Elohim” in Genesis 1, then WHAT / WHO is he talking about?

Genesis 1:26

The Elohim said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness”

Isaiah 44:24

This is what Yahweh, your protector, says,

the one who formed you in the womb:

“I am Yahweh, who made everything,

who alone stretched out the sky,

who fashioned the earth,

who was with me?”

If Deutero-Isaiah isn’t talking about “The Elohim” in Genesis 1, then WHAT / WHO is he talking about?

Genesis 2:2

On the seventh day the Elohim finished the work that he did, and he rested ...

Isaiah 40:28

Do you not know?

Have you not heard?

Yahweh is an everlasting god,

the creator of the whole earth.

He does not get tired or weary;

The section below is a direct reference to Genesis 1. It’s a rhetorical question, it’s polemical, and I’m going to give it the ROLLEYES treatment.

Isaiah 40:21

Gosh, don’t you know?

Haven’t you heard?

Hasn’t it been told to you since the very beginning?

Have you not understood from the time the earth’s foundations were made?

I’m telling ya, Deutero-Isaiah didn’t like the “our image” shit. He was a hardcore monotheist, and a Yahwist. And he knew that the first creation story didn’t have anything to do with Yahwism.

What else / who else could he talking about?

Anat · 03-21-2006, 06:56 PM

Careful, Loomis, next time you'll have Deutero-Isaiah writing in l33t

Sheshbazzar · 03-21-2006, 07:07 PM

The idea or concept that "tohu" means "chaos", or "a waste" (as of something existing previously that was destroyed or made into "a waste") is foreign to the Torah, and to the words actual usage and sense within The Scriptures.
The pagan religions taught that "creation" was imposed upon "chaos", the bringing of order to a primal state of disorder.
But the actual Scriptural teaching is that YHWH created and brought all things into being (existence), creating first "the heavens and the earth" out of nothing previous, and the earth was created "tohu v' bohu", "empty and barren", literally just a blank canvas.
"V' omer Elohim", "And spoke Elohim" and by His Word, "v' YAH' HE ore"; "Let HIM BE light"; caused to be, first, The Light, This was the first "Light", the True Light, that shined in the darkness, before ever were formed the sun, moon, or the stars.
And everything that was created, was newly created and formed according to an exacting plan, nothing was created or formed out of "a waste", or out of "chaos" or out of "confusion" or from the "leftovers" of some previous world.
The creation story of YHWH is an original creation story, unlike those of the heathens whose g-ds el'lee'leem(null g-ds) were only claimed (by their devotees) to have reworked and brought into order the elements that already existed.
This is a struggle that has been going on since the beginning, the powers of the darkness enslaving the minds of gullable and arrogant men in the attempt to substitute the doctrine of "confusion", of the g-d "Chaos", for the truth of the original creation of YHWH.

Loomis · 03-21-2006, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

This is a struggle that has been going on since the beginning, the powers of the darkness enslaving the minds of gullable and arrogant men in the attempt to substitute the doctrine of "confusion", of the g-d "Chaos", for the truth of the original creation of YHWH.

Yahweh, the council of holy ones in heaven applaud the marvel of your faithfulness.

Who in the skies can compare with Yahweh? Which of the sons of El can rival him?

El, dreaded in the council of holy ones, great and terrible to all around him,

Yahweh, the god of Sabaoth, who is like you? Mighty Yahweh, clothed in your faithfulness!

You control the pride of the Sea, when its waves ride high, you calm them;

you split Rahab in two like a carcase and scattered your enemies with your mighty arm.

The “pride of the Sea” was a chaos monster named Yam (aka Rahab).

Yahweh split Yam in two. So did Baal.

Do you know why?

Because Yahweh IS Baal. :banghead:

Guess what Yam said when Yahweh/ Baal split Yam (aka Rahab) into two pieces?

(You won't beleive it!)

El, El, why have you forsaken me?

I groan in prayer, but help seems far away.

El, I cry out during the day,

but you do not answer,

and during the night my prayers do not let up.

You are holy;

you sit as king receiving the praises of Israel.

In you our ancestors trusted;

they trusted in you and you rescued them.

To you they cried out, and they were saved;

in you they trusted and they were not disappointed.

But I am a worm, not a man;

people insult me and despise me.

All who see me taunt me;

they mock me and shake their heads.

They say,

“Commit yourself to Baal!

Let Baal rescue him!

Let the Baal deliver him, for he delights in him.”

:notworthy:

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03-21-2006, 12:27 PM	#54
IonMic Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Invercargill, New Zealand Posts: 329	Genesis 1:1-2 KJV In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Isaiah 45:18 KJV For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Loomis what bible are you using are you sure its not the Jehovah Witness one or something?

03-21-2006, 01:06 PM	#55
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	Loomis is pointing out that in hebrew Isaiah 45 uses the same words that Genesis 1 uses. In Genesis 1:2 'vehaaretz hayta tohu vabohu', whereas Isaiah 45:18 says 'lo tohu braah'. Genesis 1:2 says that the earth was 'tohu' whereas isaiah 45:18 objects that it wasn't. And now you can nitpick whether tohu is supposed to mean waste, unformed or the name of an Ugaritic deity.

03-21-2006, 06:56 PM	#58
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	Careful, Loomis, next time you'll have Deutero-Isaiah writing in l33t

03-21-2006, 07:07 PM	#59
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	The idea or concept that "tohu" means "chaos", or "a waste" (as of something existing previously that was destroyed or made into "a waste") is foreign to the Torah, and to the words actual usage and sense within The Scriptures. The pagan religions taught that "creation" was imposed upon "chaos", the bringing of order to a primal state of disorder. But the actual Scriptural teaching is that YHWH created and brought all things into being (existence), creating first "the heavens and the earth" out of nothing previous, and the earth was created "tohu v' bohu", "empty and barren", literally just a blank canvas. "V' omer Elohim", "And spoke Elohim" and by His Word, "v' YAH' HE ore"; "Let HIM BE light"; caused to be, first, The Light, This was the first "Light", the True Light, that shined in the darkness, before ever were formed the sun, moon, or the stars. And everything that was created, was newly created and formed according to an exacting plan, nothing was created or formed out of "a waste", or out of "chaos" or out of "confusion" or from the "leftovers" of some previous world. The creation story of YHWH is an original creation story, unlike those of the heathens whose g-ds el'lee'leem(null g-ds) were only claimed (by their devotees) to have reworked and brought into order the elements that already existed. This is a struggle that has been going on since the beginning, the powers of the darkness enslaving the minds of gullable and arrogant men in the attempt to substitute the doctrine of "confusion", of the g-d "Chaos", for the truth of the original creation of YHWH.

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