Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 11-13-2007, 01:47 AM

I caught part of an NPR program on The Bible: the Biography (or via: amazon.co.uk) (or The Bible: A biography (or via: amazon.co.uk) - for some reason the title is slightly different for the paperback.) The Amazon reviews are not running in her favor, and only one appears to be from a fundamentalist.

Karen Armstrong Writes 'Biography' of the Bible.

It is part of a series of "biographies" of books that changed the world, including Christopher Hitchens on How Paine's 'Rights' Changed the World.

Quote:

Armstrong says that today scripture "has a bad name." She writes, "If religion preaches compassion, why is there so much hatred in sacred texts? Is it possible to be a 'believer' today when science has undermined so many biblical teachings?"

excerpt:

Quote:

Human beings seek ekstasis, a 'stepping outside' of their normal, mundane experience. If they no longer find ecstasy in a synagogue, church or mosque, they look for it in dance, music, sport, sex or drugs. When people read the Bible receptively and intuitively, they found that it gave them intimations of transcendence. A major characteristic of a peak religious insight is a sense of completeness and oneness. It has been called coincidentia oppositorum: in this ecstatic condition, things that seemed separate and even opposed coincide and reveal an unexpected unity. The biblical story of the Garden of Eden depicts this experience of primal wholeness: God and humanity were not divided but lived in the same place; men and women were unaware of gender difference; they lived in harmony with animals and the natural world; and there was no distinction between good and evil. In such a state, divisions are transcended in an ekstasis that is separate from the conflicted fragmentary nature of ordinary life. People have tried to recreate this Edenic experience in their religious rituals.

Malachi151 · 11-13-2007, 02:15 AM

The excerpt sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me.

Firstly, I doubt many people read the scritpures until the past 400 years.

Secondly, the Torah is not an ecstatic work, its a largely mundane work built on some pre-existing legends. I'd say that in reality the Torah represents a MORE down to earth and naturalistic view of the world than much of the mythology of the same time, such as Egyptian and Greek mythology.

Once again we have people retrojecting present day views of religion back onto the ancient past. Religion has become increasingly detached from reality, and people use the present day, or at least Christian era, spiritualism to color their view of ancient religion. In fact, the Torah is much more simply concerned with law and history and isn't very spiritual and certainly isn't ecstatic.

Ray Moscow · 11-13-2007, 02:36 AM

Quote:

In fact, the Torah is much more simply concerned with law and history and isn't very spiritual and certainly isn't ecstatic.

I agree. I wonder whether Armstrong has ever suffered through a reading of Leviticus.

judge · 11-13-2007, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Secondly, the Torah is not an ecstatic work, its a largely mundane work built on some pre-existing legends.

Which pre-existing legends was the exodus built on?

If the exodus is not an historical story (which it seems not to be) then why is the exodus story with the "promised land" not an allegory dealing with personal growth

-Jay- · 11-13-2007, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Secondly, the Torah is not an ecstatic work, its a largely mundane work built on some pre-existing legends.

Which pre-existing legends was the exodus built on?

If the exodus is not an historical story (which it seems not to be) then why is the exodus story with the "promised land" not an allegory dealing with personal growth

I tend to look at the exodus story in general and in particular the "promised land" component as political justification for the Hebrew occupation of the area. "God gave us this land" is a pretty strong claim, and "look at all the hardship we had to endure to get here" helps build a strong sense of cultural identity.

To me, the exodus story seems to have a much stronger element of national/cultural etiology than personal growth.

regards,

NinJay

Magdlyn · 11-13-2007, 05:23 AM

Earlier this year, I read Armstrong's autobiography The Spiral Staircase (or via: amazon.co.uk) and just happen to presently be rereading her book The History of God (or via: amazon.co.uk).

It is ironic she focuses so much on ecstasy and Oneness with "God" as she was a nun for, iiirc, 7 yrs but left the order and returned to secular life because she never "felt" God. She could never achieve ecstasy. She felt a failure. (But at least she wasn't a hypocrite like "Mother" Teresa.)

I agree, the exodus story can be read as a gnostic metaphor for personal growth. That is how Paul saw it and I feel there is evidence that the Jesus story was written partly as a midrash of the same theme.

Speaking of the HB as a whole, certainly there are many stories of men (only the rare woman) seemindly feeling as if they are outside reality and speaking/acting as One with YHWH. A transcendental exp can be found in the quiet (the small voice) or in music/dance (David). Certainly the prophets felt as if YHWH was speaking thru them, their own egos subsumed in his.

Armstrong tried to find this Oneness thru prayer, housework and long hours of what must've been excruciating boredom. She left the convent and entered college where Beatlemania was everywhere. Unfortunately, she couldn't even tap into that joy, as Catholicism had ruined her.

Jeffrey Gibson · 11-13-2007, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

I agree, the exodus story can be read as a gnostic metaphor for personal growth. That is how Paul saw it

:huh: :huh: :huh:

Quote:

and I feel there is evidence that the Jesus story was written partly as a midrash of the same theme.

Feel? What evidence is there? And have you ever read anything in the genre "midrash" let alone the classical Jewish midrashim to se if the classification of the "Jesus story" has any formal similarities?

Jeffrey

Magdlyn · 11-13-2007, 05:41 AM

Jeffrey, I've addressed those subjects on other threads.

Jeffrey Gibson · 11-13-2007, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Jeffrey, I've addressed those subjects on other threads.

Can you tell me if the idea of "personal growth" --especially as new age gurus speak of it -- was something that was actually entertained in the ancient Mediterranean world, especially given its honour/shame orientation its dyadism, and its apparent lack (until Augustin) of the idea of introspection? Was its understanding of what a human being was and, more importantly, how one obtained the character that one had -- its psychology and anthropology -- such that the idea of "personal growth" would even have been intelligible to Mediterraneans of Paul's time?

And did the gnostics speak of "personal growth"?

Jeffrey

Magdlyn · 11-13-2007, 06:09 AM

Here is a link to the npr show with Armstrong

http://www.npr.org/blogs/talk/2007/1...cond_hour.html

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11-13-2007, 02:15 AM	#2
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	The excerpt sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me. Firstly, I doubt many people read the scritpures until the past 400 years. Secondly, the Torah is not an ecstatic work, its a largely mundane work built on some pre-existing legends. I'd say that in reality the Torah represents a MORE down to earth and naturalistic view of the world than much of the mythology of the same time, such as Egyptian and Greek mythology. Once again we have people retrojecting present day views of religion back onto the ancient past. Religion has become increasingly detached from reality, and people use the present day, or at least Christian era, spiritualism to color their view of ancient religion. In fact, the Torah is much more simply concerned with law and history and isn't very spiritual and certainly isn't ecstatic.

11-13-2007, 05:23 AM	#6
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	Earlier this year, I read Armstrong's autobiography The Spiral Staircase (or via: amazon.co.uk) and just happen to presently be rereading her book The History of God (or via: amazon.co.uk). It is ironic she focuses so much on ecstasy and Oneness with "God" as she was a nun for, iiirc, 7 yrs but left the order and returned to secular life because she never "felt" God. She could never achieve ecstasy. She felt a failure. (But at least she wasn't a hypocrite like "Mother" Teresa.) I agree, the exodus story can be read as a gnostic metaphor for personal growth. That is how Paul saw it and I feel there is evidence that the Jesus story was written partly as a midrash of the same theme. Speaking of the HB as a whole, certainly there are many stories of men (only the rare woman) seemindly feeling as if they are outside reality and speaking/acting as One with YHWH. A transcendental exp can be found in the quiet (the small voice) or in music/dance (David). Certainly the prophets felt as if YHWH was speaking thru them, their own egos subsumed in his. Armstrong tried to find this Oneness thru prayer, housework and long hours of what must've been excruciating boredom. She left the convent and entered college where Beatlemania was everywhere. Unfortunately, she couldn't even tap into that joy, as Catholicism had ruined her.

11-13-2007, 05:41 AM	#8
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	Jeffrey, I've addressed those subjects on other threads.

11-13-2007, 06:09 AM	#10
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	Here is a link to the npr show with Armstrong http://www.npr.org/blogs/talk/2007/1...cond_hour.html

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