Duvduv

Anyone with their antennae up see what's going on. The downward spiral of this thread with the "contributions" (or diversions) of Semiopen is just one example of what goes on.
Vigorous discussion based on substance is also quite different than the bickering that goes on. Or the almost religious dedication to certain hypotheses for which I suppose a person's reputation can be viewed to be at stake. Or just plain diversions into subjects unrelated to the thread, or just plain one-line chatting........It's all over the place

Toto

Duvduv - if this is not the direction you intended the thread to go, what did you intend?

spin

Having looked at photos of the Nahal Hever Ps 22 frag mentioned here, I see that there is a tendency to lengthen of yod at the end of words (though not at the beginnings).

Here is an image:



Notice: עצמותי ("my bones") in the 1st line and beginning of 4th line, and לעזרתי ("to help me") in the bottom line. Also note יראו-בי in line 4, where there is no size difference between the yods and the waw. It's rather clear that the sizes of yods and waws fluctuated enough for them to seem the same.

Notwithstanding the certainty of the analysis you cite, I conclude from the photo that the denial of like a lion in this fragment is just another piece of christian apologetic.

Duvduv

I just wanted to point out the very different usage of Psalm 22 than the usual familiar one. However, I should add that I never understood its contextual use in the gospels. Anyway you look at it God was viewed as intimately involved with the christ, and abandonment was the furthest thing from the story. One can only wonder why it was added, except as some subtle jab at the official religion by an author who didn't take the stoey seriously in the first place.

Toto

What is the official religion to which you refer? Which story did the author not take seriously? Who was the author?

If you write more complete thoughts and sentences, it will be easier to keep threads on track.

Tenorikuma

Giovanni Garbini's essay on Psalm 22 and the Synoptic quotes is very interesting. I'll try to post a summary if I have time. It seems that both Jewish and Christian tomfoolery has been going on with regard to that psalm.

semiopen

Yes, I agree with you. I'm neutral on the vav yud thing. I'd give the nod to the Jews on general principles except I'm completely unable to understand why the lion winds up in a verse about dogs, doing something that doesn't make a lot of sense. Not the first verse in the bible that I've had trouble with.

Why the psalm is a prophecy completely baffles me, but chances are much better for Yoshke actually existing than Esther. The talmudic stuff here seems simply a response to the Christians.

I saw a 2008 article a few days ago favoring the yud (making similar points to yours), but can't find it at the moment.

Jesus_and_messianic_prophecy -

The footnote refers to Dr. Swenson's article.

spin

Animal threat. In one part dogs surround you, in another a lion is at your hands and feet.

The thing to wonder is did the Greek translation come before the christian use or after? That's where it is explicitly "dig". But then "dig" is pretty strange used this way.

"like a lion my hands and my feet" seems strange to us but ancient Hebrew is a dead language. We have pieced together how it works from hindsight. Idioms of the era may not be accessible to us. "They dug my hands and feet" bears no coherent meaning either. There are a few nice verbs to give the idea of "pierce", מחץ or דקר.

semiopen

Duvi simply gets bothered by sexual stuff. Hence his emotional comment.

He brought this on himself here, by making an incorrect reference which led to my discovering the Talmudic comment about the narrow nature of Esther's vagina.

In fact there are many passages in the Talmud that are similar in adult content. Daatemet being a good source.

For example,

A woman should not raise a dog for fear of perversion

Duvi has a right to his opinions. Personally, I thought that since the thread starts with Psalm 22 and he goes through the trouble of giving the approximate (albeit wrong) reference, that the entire text of Psalm 22 is in play, certainly the talmudic commentary on this, which specifically includes 22:17.

The hind reference is certainly also in scope as it deals specifically with the Talmud and Esther. In fact, he brought the topic up himself yesterday.

While researching his comments, I was surprised to find the Hamentashen/vagina comparison which has quite a bit of web commentary. I've never heard this before and it seemed appropriate to mention it. It seemed to me that caused him to write his complaint.

Duvduv

The basic meaning is pretty straightforward: "like a lion (are) my hands and feet."
There is no present verb form of "to be" in Hebrew. Thus the hands and feet are like those of a lion.
So apparently the so-called prophecy based on alternative spelling of one word was itself misunderstood. But I still wonder why Jesus would utter the first verse given the fact he was deemed so linked with God according to GMatt and GMark. GLuke, who doesn't mention it must have realized the problem.
How the LXX gets the verb "bite" or the word "pierce " from "dig" escapes me. But of course kara itself doesn't have the alef anyway.
But again, the regime's scribes were not doctrinally meticulous either.