Freethought & Rationalism Archive

chekmate · 12-08-2003, 05:03 PM

What's that verse, where God orders that bears to eat all the children of the village or something?

Toto · 12-08-2003, 05:08 PM

2 Kings 2: 23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. 25

It's not clear that god ordered the bears to eat the youths. He might have just lifted his veil of protection from them. <end Falwell parody>

GarColga · 12-08-2003, 06:15 PM

I think God probably did order the bears to maul the 'youths'. In 1 Kings 20:35-36 He has a lion eat a guy for refusing to 'smite' a 'certain man'. So He has priors, as a prosecutor might say!

35] And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said unto his neighbour in the word of the LORD, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man refused to smite him.
[36] Then said he unto him, Because thou hast not obeyed the voice of the LORD, behold, as soon as thou art departed from me, a lion shall slay thee. And as soon as he was departed from him, a lion found him, and slew him.

lpetrich · 12-08-2003, 09:50 PM

I think that that story was invented by some priests who had gotten teased about their baldness by some little boys.

Vinnie · 12-08-2003, 10:35 PM

I am not expert at Hebrew linguistics (actually I know next to niothing!) but this account might not refer to "children" at all.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qmeanelisha.html

Quote:

1. First of all, they weren't "little kids"!

"'Little children' is an unfortunate translation. The Hebrew expression neurim qetannim is best rendered 'young lads' or 'young men.' From numerous examples where ages are specified in the Old Testament, we know that these were boys from twelve to thirty years old. One of these words described Isaac at his sacrifice in Genesis 22:12, when he was easily in his early twenties. It described Joseph in Genesis 37:2 when he was seventeen years old. In fact, the same word described army men in 1 Kings 20:14-15...these are young men ages between twelve and thirty." [HSOBX]

Vinnie

contracycle · 12-09-2003, 02:16 AM

I find that unconvincing; as I understand it the age of formal maturity in Jewish tradition is 14. If these lads are described as "young", then they are either under this age of maturity, or only slightly over. Appealing to a range as high as 30 seems a gross stretch (esopecially as this might be near the end of expected lifespan). Furthermore, its is not IMO any more moral to kill adults for calling you baldy than to kill children fior the same.

Javaman · 12-09-2003, 03:37 AM

I'm supposing that the search function is having problems and that's why I can't find the many threads on this subject. Suffice to say, Vinnie, the subject of age has been tackled before... but I don't see why it should matter. The crime and subsequent punishment are unrelated to the age of the offenders unless you think it becomes OK if these 'youths' were approaching 30.

gregor · 12-09-2003, 05:39 AM

Does age matter?

While I can't speak for Vinnie's motives, a number of apologists like Glenn Miller try and spin this narrative into an attack by a gang of adults. They further try and argue that "go up, bald head" was some threat that they might kill the prophet.

Thus, they deserve death. Thus, the age of the "young men" is purportedly relevant, as is what they said.

My recollection is that the analysis of the original language provided no traction for the apologists, though. It's a weak argument.

Amaleq13 · 12-09-2003, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by contracycle
Furthermore, its is not IMO any more moral to kill adults for calling you baldy than to kill children fior the same.

Surely you must have a full head of hair!

Don't forget to wonder what sort of omniscient deity can't simply smite the youths rather than remote control some bears to do the dirty work!

Steven Carr · 12-09-2003, 08:20 AM

'One of these words described Isaac at his sacrifice in Genesis 22:12, when he was easily in his early twenties. It described Joseph in Genesis 37:2 when he was seventeen years old. In fact, the same word described army men in 1 Kings 20:14-15...these are young men ages between twelve and thirty."'

I love this 'one of these words'......

I think I can kill all children with toy soldiers, because 'one of these words' (soldiers) is used to describe people who fire rockets and shells at others.

OK, there is another word (toy), but surely taking one word and seeing how it is used elsewhere is not ripping things out of context?

12-08-2003, 05:03 PM	#1
chekmate Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Downriver Detroit Posts: 1,961	What's the verse with the bears eating the children? What's that verse, where God orders that bears to eat all the children of the village or something?

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12-08-2003, 05:08 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	2 Kings 2: 23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. 25 It's not clear that god ordered the bears to eat the youths. He might have just lifted his veil of protection from them. <end Falwell parody>

12-08-2003, 06:15 PM	#3
GarColga Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boise, Idaho, USA Posts: 57	I think God probably did order the bears to maul the 'youths'. In 1 Kings 20:35-36 He has a lion eat a guy for refusing to 'smite' a 'certain man'. So He has priors, as a prosecutor might say! 35] And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said unto his neighbour in the word of the LORD, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man refused to smite him. [36] Then said he unto him, Because thou hast not obeyed the voice of the LORD, behold, as soon as thou art departed from me, a lion shall slay thee. And as soon as he was departed from him, a lion found him, and slew him.

12-08-2003, 09:50 PM	#4
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I think that that story was invented by some priests who had gotten teased about their baldness by some little boys.

12-09-2003, 02:16 AM	#6
contracycle Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: London Posts: 1,425	I find that unconvincing; as I understand it the age of formal maturity in Jewish tradition is 14. If these lads are described as "young", then they are either under this age of maturity, or only slightly over. Appealing to a range as high as 30 seems a gross stretch (esopecially as this might be near the end of expected lifespan). Furthermore, its is not IMO any more moral to kill adults for calling you baldy than to kill children fior the same.

12-09-2003, 03:37 AM	#7
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	I'm supposing that the search function is having problems and that's why I can't find the many threads on this subject. Suffice to say, Vinnie, the subject of age has been tackled before... but I don't see why it should matter. The crime and subsequent punishment are unrelated to the age of the offenders unless you think it becomes OK if these 'youths' were approaching 30.

12-09-2003, 05:39 AM	#8
gregor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 932	Does age matter? While I can't speak for Vinnie's motives, a number of apologists like Glenn Miller try and spin this narrative into an attack by a gang of adults. They further try and argue that "go up, bald head" was some threat that they might kill the prophet. Thus, they deserve death. Thus, the age of the "young men" is purportedly relevant, as is what they said. My recollection is that the analysis of the original language provided no traction for the apologists, though. It's a weak argument.

12-09-2003, 08:20 AM	#10
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	'One of these words described Isaac at his sacrifice in Genesis 22:12, when he was easily in his early twenties. It described Joseph in Genesis 37:2 when he was seventeen years old. In fact, the same word described army men in 1 Kings 20:14-15...these are young men ages between twelve and thirty."' I love this 'one of these words'...... I think I can kill all children with toy soldiers, because 'one of these words' (soldiers) is used to describe people who fire rockets and shells at others. OK, there is another word (toy), but surely taking one word and seeing how it is used elsewhere is not ripping things out of context?

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