Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jack the Bodiless · 03-20-2006, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidFromTexas

LOL!!!

Can you not read?

The verse says that it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to be brought back! Since it is impossible for them (those who have once been enlightened) to be brought back, then it is impossible for them to fall away. You simply do not understand what the verse is saying.

No, YOU cannot read.

Those verses say that it is impossible for them to come back if they fall away. They do NOT say that it is impossible to fall away.

And, besides, WE KNOW that it is possible to fall away.

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In other words, you have become the judge of God. You have placed yourself into the position of a judge, even higher than that of God.

God does not exist. So it's easy to place ourselves in a "higher" position. We can also judge the people who invented him.

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The wisdom of God is foolishness to man. The foolishness of God vastly exceeds the wisdom of man.

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." (1 Corinthians 3:19-20)

I am smarter than God, and smarter than the people who invented him.

David... have you entirely forgotten where you are? We are UNBELIEVERS. We are NOT going to be impressed by having Bible quotes thrown at us! Do you imagine we'll recoil like vampires or something? We UNDERSTAND the Bible (better than you do, actually).

DavidfromTexas · 03-20-2006, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

David, you might want to tone down your sarcasm. Something that people like you (by that, I mean people who seem to want to convert atheists...

So are you one of those "softer and gentler" lukewarm types?

Have you not read the scriptures?

Read the sermon of Stephen, the sermons of the apostle Paul, and the sermons of Jesus, particularly in John 6-8.

There is a time and place for everything, including boldness.

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i hope you are not here just to condemn!) don't seem to understand is that insults and strong language drive others away rather than toward your goal.

You are in great error.

There is absolutely NOTHING that I can do to drive away those of whom God has called and chosen for His own... absolutely nothing. I do not have that kind of power, and neither do you.

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If you are here merely to insult and degrade those you believe God made, then shame on you. You should leave and think harder about what you are doing.

Insult and degrade?

Jesus never insulted anyone, correct?

The apostle Paul never said a word that upset anyone, correct?

The disciples were like teddy bears, correct?

Hogwash.

Phlox Pyros · 03-20-2006, 07:06 AM

*sigh* I think that open and thoughtful discourse in this thread has run its course.

Gooch's dad · 03-20-2006, 07:07 AM

DavidfromTexas, you keep posting bible verses, without seeming to realize that the entire point is that there is no reason to presume the bible to be true.

If you want to show that the bible is a trustworthy source of information, go start a thread in BC&H to defend that claim. For this thread, the bible can be considered as just another book of mythology.

Your argument seems to be that there are no deconverted Christians, simply because the bible seems to back that up. So what? We have no reason to believe the bible. Get the point now?

Phlox Pyros · 03-20-2006, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidfromTexas

So are you one of those "softer and gentler" lukewarm types?

That is my business and not yours. Your business according to the gospels is to present the message and to dust your feet off and walk away if the message is not received.

Quote:

Jesus never insulted anyone, correct?

Look more closely at whom Jesus reprimanded. He reprimanded the overly religious, the white-washed tombs that never examined themselves but instead condemned everyone else.

Whom did Jesus associate with? Jesus associated with those who were considered sinners. Matthew was also a Tax Collector. Had Jesus walked up to Matthew and said some of the things you've said to these people, do you think Matthew would have followed him?

I think you need to do some self-relfexion. Jesus is about love. His condemnations were mainly reserved for those who did not love and simply presented themselves as holier than others without examining their own lives for sin and hypocrisy.

Julian · 03-20-2006, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

Whole new can of worms. Fundamenatlist Christians do see you as taking away their freedoms. Things that have long been the norm have been taken away from them...

Meaningless. Slavery was once the norm, too. Bad argument.

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prayer in schools (now even the moment of silence is being challenged...how utterly stupid and revengeful I find that),

They can still pray in school if they want, there is no law against that. My kids should have the right not to have to pray. Christians still have their freedom to pray, now my kids have theirs not to.

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the 10 commandments that you mention that have long been displayed on walls are now being forced to be taken down.

They should never have been up there in the first place. First amendment.

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Life is changing for Christians, whether you see it or not, and I can understand why they feel that your vote is also "bad".

Well, anyone who feels that way is not quite right in the head. How can "I want the government to enforce my religion upon everyone" ever be taken as anything positive? Most moderate christians that I know agree with me.

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Anyway, that's all I'll say on this because it is a big political mess that can't and shouldn't be talked about in this thread.

I agree, it is a derail. I will also desist.

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I will disagree with you on this until my dying day. I live in an city area where most are highly educated and inquisitive people, and I know that many of them are Christians. Statistics can be made to say anything, as I have seen many times first hand in my job. For instance, I would say that Penn and Teller are complete idiots, and not as intelligent as they think they are. I would also say that there are many atheist websites that misrepresent truths (mostly out of ignorance). But, non-religious people are definitely no less intelligent than religious ones.

Anecdotal, scientifically meaningless. Here is a summary of many, many studies: http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Inte...20religion.htm

Notice that it is a statistical observation. You will still find intelligent christians and stupid atheists, of course. But if you step back and look at the big picture, that facts become undeniable. Anyways, I will desist on this topic, as well.

Julian

mirage · 03-20-2006, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

I have not yet found the right language for use in deconverting Catholics. But I'd welcome any clues.

There is the guy called Martin Luther who might be able to help. He could turn them all proddy and scripture based, then you can bash 'em with Bible quotes! The old one two!

DavidfromTexas · 03-20-2006, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

No, YOU cannot read.

Those verses say that it is impossible for them to come back if they fall away.

Yeah... the big IF, correct?

The problem is, you have made the word "IF" into "when". Read the verse over again, and place the word "when" in the place of "if"... The meaning is essentially the same according to your interpretation.

For a brief answer regarding this passage... http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

For a more indepth understanding... http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper96/10-13-96.htm

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They do NOT say that it is impossible to fall away.

And, besides, WE KNOW that it is possible to fall away.

Agree, but it depends on what context.

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God does not exist. So it's easy to place ourselves in a "higher" position. We can also judge the people who invented him.

If you say that God does not exist, then how can someone truly "fall away" from something that does not exist?

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I am smarter than God, and smarter than the people who invented him.

LOL!!!

Absurd.

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David... have you entirely forgotten where you are? We are UNBELIEVERS. We are NOT going to be impressed by having Bible quotes thrown at us! Do you imagine we'll recoil like vampires or something? We UNDERSTAND the Bible (better than you do, actually).

LOL!

How can a non-believer understand the Bible better than a believer?

Have you not read the scriptures?

Quote:

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

(1 Corinthians 2:9-15)

DavidfromTexas · 03-20-2006, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

That is my business and not yours. Your business according to the gospels is to present the message and to dust your feet off and walk away if the message is not received.

The message has not even been presented yet, and you are suggesting that it is time to dust off my feet and walk away?

What kind of message is that?

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Look more closely at whom Jesus reprimanded. He reprimanded the overly religious, the white-washed tombs that never examined themselves but instead condemned everyone else.

Precisely.

Look at the white washed tombs around here... They are everywhere. Open your eyes to the harvest!

Can you not see what is in front of your very eyes? Look at the posts above this one...

For example, consider the following gem...

"We are NOT going to be impressed by having Bible quotes thrown at us! Do you imagine we'll recoil like vampires or something? We UNDERSTAND the Bible (better than you do, actually)."

Hmmmnnn... does the above sound familiar? (Hint: read the confrontations that Jesus had with the Pharisees and Saducees...)

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Whom did Jesus associate with? Jesus associated with those who were considered sinners.

Are you suggesting that the persons posting here are not sinners?

Are you serious?

LOL!!!

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Matthew was also a Tax Collector. Had Jesus walked up to Matthew and said some of the things you've said to these people, do you think Matthew would have followed him?

Actually, yes!

The call of God is efficacious!

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I think you need to do some self-relfexion. Jesus is about love. His condemnations were mainly reserved for those who did not love and simply presented themselves as holier than others without examining their own lives for sin and hypocrisy.

Wake up, sir.

Look above you! Read what has already been written! For example, consider the following gems...

"God does not exist. So it's easy to place ourselves in a "higher" position. We can also judge the people who invented him."

"I am smarter than God, and smarter than the people who invented him."

The harvest is ripe! The message needs to go forth!

Sven · 03-20-2006, 09:09 AM

Why do you all still bother with David's subpontibian diatribe?

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03-20-2006, 07:06 AM	#103
Phlox Pyros Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: 7th Heaven Posts: 406	sigh I think that open and thoughtful discourse in this thread has run its course.

03-20-2006, 07:07 AM	#104
Gooch's dad Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Madison WI USA Posts: 3,508	DavidfromTexas, you keep posting bible verses, without seeming to realize that the entire point is that there is no reason to presume the bible to be true. If you want to show that the bible is a trustworthy source of information, go start a thread in BC&H to defend that claim. For this thread, the bible can be considered as just another book of mythology. Your argument seems to be that there are no deconverted Christians, simply because the bible seems to back that up. So what? We have no reason to believe the bible. Get the point now?

03-20-2006, 09:09 AM	#110
Sven Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: outraged about the stiffling of free speech here Posts: 10,987	Why do you all still bother with David's subpontibian diatribe?

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