JohNeo

Even as a kid the statement that Christ died for my sins was confusing at best and guilt-laden at worst. I think it's fair to say that Christ died (and if there never was a Jesus, others died in his place) from sin (the sin of wrath) but not for specific sins, and that his death (or anyone's death) upon the cross is nothing for humanity to take any pride in. His execution has nothing whatever to do with lust, greed or sloth.

However, one of the biggest problems I have had with Christianity, especially since I became atheist, is that the "atonement" that Christ's blood was supposed to bring in his time accomplishes nothing. People still murder, steal and lie. So their sins are paid for with Christ's blood, right? Well, is this any consolation to the victims of the sinful acts? :huh:

How is it that "scapegoat" is so often used as a term of derision, is a ludicrous idea unto itself, and has origins in ancient superstition, but when the Son of God becomes the scapegoat (exactly the same concept, no more, no less), suddenly that scapegoat is worthy of worship. Only the purported enemies of God are supposed to worship goats :devil3: .

And about the sacrifice: it was supposed to be the full and perfect sacrifice? Why, then, do Christians place such honor on the disciples who faced imprisonment and execution, and the many saints to follow who would die their own horrible deaths? God was somehow able to arrange for prophecy to be fulfilled in the Passion and resurrection, but he was powerless to uphold the promise that Jesus' death would put an end to sacrificing in the name of God. The "full and perfect sacrifice" is neither full nor perfect.

Instead, Jesus died such a horrible death that only his most blind--and dare I say deranged--followers will see such honor in his death that they feel they must die an equally horrible death. Look at the story of Saint Peter. It's said that he chose to be crucified upside down, because he was deserving of a worse crucifixion than Jesus. WTF? :huh: I think if this story were even true (which it most likely is not), it shows that Christianity is a cult for which there will never be enough blood spilled.


JohNeo

THX1138

Yeah - Patti Smith ROCKS! :thumbs:

(appropriate line too...)

J

JohNeo

:jump: :jump: :jump: :boohoo: :jump: :jump: :jump:


That's about the best I can come up with.... :huh:


JohNeo

MonkeyMan

[whisper]
Pssst!

Hey! You!

Yes, you!

*opens raincoat to reveal some bihbul verses tucked into the inside pockets*

Wanna buy some naughty Jaysus quotes your Preech would get a hissy fit over?

Matthew 15:24's a real crowd pleaser, mate. Here, sniff the aroma pal. Seeeerious shit!!

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

You not a cardcarrying, yarmulke-toting, circumcised Yehudi, are ya?

So it's a get-out-of-guilt-free card, right?!!

*pockets cash*

Enjoy it! There's more where this came from

Move on, now, pal. Friggin' Fundybots a'roaming free tonite.

[/whisper}

Another satisfied customer

We aim to please :devil3:

Salieri

Another way to put it is that without Christ, we can never get rid of our envy, greed, gluttony, sloth wrath, lust, and pride. We will be trapped in them forever with no way out. We will also die never having them be redeemed. The above sins is what causes the world's problems! Christi is the ONLY solution to the sin problem. If everyone obeyed the Ten Commandments we wouldn't need ANY laws!! But since most people like the above sins, and reject God for them we will always need laws to protect us and other people from our sins. But even that doesn't work because people continue to indulge in them. That's because, as i said, Christ is the ONLY solution to the sin problem and most people reject Christ. I find it interesting that many people blame God for their continuing to sin instead of themselves. God has given us the only solution to sin even though people hate him, mock him and reject him anyway for it. This is the sin of pride which people love to indulge in because it feels good to reject God and think we know better than he does which is playing God ourselves. But that simply isn't the truth. We didn't create the world. We are not ominiscient and ominpotent. Why do you think God should reward us for a lie? How then would he be just?

Bright Life

I'm sorry, I just can't take your words as sincere. Everyone knows that you hate god, and that you killed Mozart!

Tuvar Ane Ingolenen

How do you know this? Some people can get rid of one or two of these without Christ, there might even be a few people who get rid of all of them. Likewise there would be people who would not be able to get rid of any with Christ. In the end we have to do it ourselves, the hardest part is of-couse distinguishing envy, greed, gluttony, sloth, wrath, lust, and pride from ambition, economy, appetite, peace-of-mind, courage, passion and self-esteem.
Perhaps what traps you is your black&white perspective on these things. Why this obsession with binary absolutes? If its not true its a lie, if its not love it is hate, if its not respect its contempt, if you're not with us you're against us, you deserve eternal bliss or eternal torment.
Why assume this is possible, or even necessary?
No! the world's problems are caused by ignorance and superstition, by people who believe there is such a thing as holiness, and that human life, diginity and freedom must yield when it is threatened or insulted.
And if everyone obeyed the law we wouldn't need ANY laws!!
Doesn't sound like much of a solution, not something you'd expect from an omnipotent god, exactly what you'd expect from a non-existant one.
I find it interesting that people can believe,
an omnipotent, omniscient being created people,
which he knew beforehand would break the law he made,
and would suffer for eternity
because he would blind them and harden their hearts
so that they would reject his son,
who was punished in their stead,
even though he was innocent,

is not only real, but just.
To think that the creator of the universe, created us, one of many life-forms in an insignificantly thin region between rock and vacuum, of an non-descript planet, in a non-descript solar system among vastly many, in a non-descript galaxy among vastly many. And we are special, that is pride.
ominiscience and ominpotence are silly self-contradictory notions. Only fictional entities can have such attributes.
Justice is just a fancy word for the way we cope with the results of our incompetence and ignorance, its nothing to be proud of.

His Noodly Appendage

See, what I've never understood is what it even MEANS to 'die for' someone's sins.

"For my sister so loved me, that she hit herself on the head with a brick for my parking tickets" -> "That's nice, now pay the fine." -> "but... the brick!" -> "I don't give a damn if she danced the lindy hop with a herd of diseased elk. You didn't feed the meter. Now pay."

Exactly how does one person's suffering amerliorate another person's wrongdoing? I don't even see how suffering ameliorates your OWN wrongdoing, let alone anyone else's.

The two concepts just aren't related. If I kick an old lady in the shins, then throwing myself down the stairs in repentance won't make it unhappen. And unless she's a particularly spiteful old lady, my pain won't even make her feel any better about it.

It's doubly irrelevant if someone ELSE throws themselves down the stairs on my behalf.

God could slaughter dozens of himselves, and it wouldn't make the bad things people do any less bad. If he just wanted an excuse or mechanism to forgive people - why killing his son? Why require that people accept that he killed his son? Why not require that they paint their nose green, or set fire to their toenails, or something? It's about as relevant, and a lot less horrible.

Why the hell does god need a mechanism in the first place? I mean, he's meant to be omnipotent, so mechanisms should be entirely unnecessary no matter WHAT he wants. And hell... I can forgive in the blink of an eye, if I choose. Why can't god do something a mere mortal has no problem with?

Christianity is weird.

jbc

hinduwoman

salieri, your explanation does not explain how sacrificing God to God by God can take away my sins. It seems to be a closed loop.

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Ever hear of Buddhism? They've been remarkably successful with that. Not completely successful, mind. But more successful than the Christian faith has been.