Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Joan of Bark · 12-30-2007, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMD

Your omnipotent god had to harden Pharaoh's so that he could send all those plagues and killings in order to soften his heart and show him his error? Why did your cruel god harden his heart in the first place? He was ready to let them go until your god stepped in and hardened his heart in order to kill a large number of Egyptians. Why do people keep claiming that this god is good?

In Romans, Paul explains it this way--

Romans 9
16 ...it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”
18 Therefore [God] has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

From a Calvinist, this is exactly the answer I would have expected. Basically you're saying we are all just pawns in God's little game.

rhutchin · 12-30-2007, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

Another obvious contradiction is that Luke says that Jesus appeared to "the eleven" on Easter night, while John claims Thomas was absent.

Where in Luke did you find this? I could not find it.

rhutchin · 12-30-2007, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMD

Your omnipotent god had to harden Pharaoh's so that he could send all those plagues and killings in order to soften his heart and show him his error? Why did your cruel god harden his heart in the first place? He was ready to let them go until your god stepped in and hardened his heart in order to kill a large number of Egyptians. Why do people keep claiming that this god is good?

In Romans, Paul explains it this way--

Romans 9
16 ...it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”
18 Therefore [God] has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

From a Calvinist, this is exactly the answer I would have expected. Basically you're saying we are all just pawns in God's little game.

Knowing this and knowing that the Bible says you can petition God for His blessing, do you seek God's blessing or just stand in the corner muttering to yourself?

DBT · 12-30-2007, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by helmvgod

God is good to all, or just a few?
PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

GOD is good to all, but Jeremiah GOD is talking about the difference between those who love him and are righteous and those who hate him.

The verse clearly states that God is good to all. The word all encompasses everybody and everything...there are no exclusions stated or implied.

"But I say to you, love your enemies and bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who insult you and persecute you...Matthew 5:44

Roland · 12-30-2007, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

Another obvious contradiction is that Luke says that Jesus appeared to "the eleven" on Easter night, while John claims Thomas was absent.

Where in Luke did you find this? I could not find it.

It's in Luke 24:

33And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found gathered together the eleven and those who were with them,

34saying, "The Lord has really risen and has appeared to Simon."

35They began to relate their experiences on the road and how he was recognized by them in the breaking of the bread.

BMD · 12-30-2007, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMD

Your omnipotent god had to harden Pharaoh's so that he could send all those plagues and killings in order to soften his heart and show him his error? Why did your cruel god harden his heart in the first place? He was ready to let them go until your god stepped in and hardened his heart in order to kill a large number of Egyptians. Why do people keep claiming that this god is good?

In Romans, Paul explains it this way--

Romans 9
16 ...it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”
18 Therefore [God] has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Which changes nothing about what I said.

If it is necessary for your god to make someone do bad things so that they can then be severely punished, along with an entire country, in a cruel manner just so some local, petty deity can show his power, then your god is nothing like any reasonable definition of "good." Your own holy book describes him as an evil bastard even as it tries to tell us how good he really is.

Dogfish · 12-30-2007, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogfish

Or maybe he sold 360,000 to his neighbor...

Or maybe he was just leasing 360,000 of them...

Or maybe he was inflating the numbers for tax purposes...

Then again, maybe you don't have an inkling as to what was going on because the text doesn't tell us.

Missing information does not make a contradiction.

We already have the contradiction. Missing information that clearly overthrows the contradiction makes the contradiction so.

Dogfish · 12-30-2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

The true contradiction in the resurrection accounts lies not in how many people came to the tomb, but in who told Mary Magdalene that Jesus had risen.

In Matthew's version, Mary is clearly told by a angel who sends her off to bring the news to the disciples. In John, she tells the disciples that she thinks the body has been stolen and is told by Jesus himself that he has been resurrected.

That is not necessarily the way events are required to have played out. We know that a group of women that included Mary M. went to the tomb in the early morning. At some point, Mary Magdalene leaves the other women and goes to tell Peter (and John) that the tomb is empty. Given the scant information she gives Peter, it seems that Mary left the tomb immediately when she saw that the rock had been rolled away. She was not with the other women when they approached closer to the tomb and were confronted by the angels. It is the group of women without Mary who then leave the tomb to tell the disciples (in some location other than with Peter and John). Mary follows Peter and John to the tomb and lingers behind where she is met by Jesus. This scenario seems to be consistent with the information that we are given by Matthew and John. I think this is the basic harmony espoused by Biblical commentators.

I think you're grasping at straws to try to rationalize an emotional belief.

Dogfish · 12-30-2007, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

From a Calvinist, this is exactly the answer I would have expected. Basically you're saying we are all just pawns in God's little game.

Knowing this and knowing that the Bible says you can petition God for His blessing, do you seek God's blessing or just stand in the corner muttering to yourself?

Knowing what? Do you mean, "knowing what you believe" or "knowing what the bible says"? We, or you, know nothing that would cause a rational person to "seek god's blessing". See, "seeking god's blessing" IS just standing in the corner muttering to yourself.

Dogfish · 12-30-2007, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Where in Luke did you find this? I could not find it.

It's in Luke 24:

33And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found gathered together the eleven and those who were with them,

34saying, "The Lord has really risen and has appeared to Simon."

35They began to relate their experiences on the road and how he was recognized by them in the breaking of the bread.

It was probably buried deep in the text - anyone who takes the bible as the word of his creator could have easily missed it.

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