Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Richbee · 05-01-2006, 10:21 AM

John Bloom considers the Ezekiel prophesy as true over 700 years.

In some ways I disagree, because I find a near total humilating defeat of the Kingdom of Tyre, both Politically and Spiritually in a sense of power or evil destroyed.

In any case, no matter how many extra details and extraneous facts Farrel Till throws into the debate, he's refuted, repudiuated and retorted!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbee

I mentioned that I posted and used two websites as apologetic sources for some of my arguments.

John Bloom's would represent a third..............

Quote:

In summary we can reconstruct the following:

Nebuchadnezzar, like Esarhaddon a century before him, waged a conventional land-based attack against the mainland portion of greater Tyre. He successfully captured the mainland, but not before most of the occupants had a chance to flee to the island fortress, taking the best of their goods with them. After a 13-year siege, the island was starved into submission, and became a vassal of Babylon. There was a change' of leadership and undoubtedly some tribute paid, but the island was not pillaged. Given the minimal return for their effort, God rewarded Nebuchadnezzar's troops by granting them success against Egypt. Ezekiel 29:17-21 is not "making lemonade out of a lemon" or trying to cover for a failed prophecy; it is simply rewarding the first of the many waves of nations that will follow.

4) Alexander's attack against the island city of Tyre in 332 B.C. is famous in military history. While invading Persia and Egypt, Alexander did not want to leave his flank exposed to a possible counterattack from Tyre, a vassal of Persia and the strongest naval power on the Mediterranean. Rather than waste time besieging the island for years, he decided to build a land bridge out to the island and take it by direct attack. This dramatic venture is well documented in Arrian's Anabasis Alexandri.

Many commentators feel that Ezekiel's prophecy was fulfilled in Alexander's attack, and some liberal scholars argue for a late date for Ezekiel by claiming that later disciples inserted the material that describes Alexander's siege so well.23 Clearly, Alexander fulfilled the comments that the rubble of Tyre would be thrown into the sea, since the mainland ruins were used to build the land bridge out to the island.24 However Ezekiel predicts that Tyre would not be rebuilt, and that it would become a place for the spreading of fishnets. From Arrian's descriptions it is very clear that Alexander did not level the island fortress, in fact, he had Tyre rebuilt. Tyre remained an important trading and manufacturing center that was fought over by Alexander's immediate successors, the Ptolemies and the Seleucids.25

Recent excavations at Tyre show how large the city was in Roman times. A hippodrome with a seating capacity for 60,000 people and a large necropolis were discovered on the mainland in the 1970's. Clearly in New Testament times, the prophecy of Ezekiel was not fulfilled: Tyre was a thriving commercial center when the First Testament was distributed throughout the Roman Empire by Jewish and Christian communities alike. Thus it seems strange for critics to propose that a late redactor inserted the material about Alexander "after the fact," but was so foolish to put in (or leave in) these obvious errors.

5) Tyre served as a major trading and manufacturing center throughout the Byzantine and Muslim periods. During the Crusades, Tyre remained strong and well-fortified, surviving a siege by Saladin in 1187-88 A.D. Finally, in 1291 A.D., the last wave of the nations crashed against Tyre. The Mamluks from Egypt took Tyre, massacred the citizens or sold them into slavery, and destroyed the city as part of their "scorched-earth" policy to thwart any attempt by the Crusaders to return.26 The region then suffered under inter-sect Muslim rivalry, a major earthquake and plague. Several travelogues written during this period remark that the site was essentially abandoned.

In the 1760's a small settlement at Tyre was encouraged by regional authorities, which grew into a small fishing village. Tyre finally became a place for the spreading of fishnets.

6) Over the past 30 years the city of Tyre has grown in size, thanks to a new water supply and Lebanese efforts to develop the excellent beaches near the site as a resort and tourist attraction.27 However, the civil war and proximity to Israel make the region unstable today. Looting at the site is a major concern of archaeologists and historians. Despite this modest growth there seems to be no danger that Tyre will once again become the world-class commercial center and naval power that earned her the title of "Queen of the Seas".

Summary

While commentators may haggle over Nebuchadnezzar's siege, Alexander's battle, the editing of the text by redactor-disciples, and Ezekiel's supposed admission of his failed prophecy, it seems obvious that his prediction has been fulfilled for the past 700 years. I am not aware of any scholar who claims that Ezekiel's predictions about the city not being rebuilt and its fishnets were inserted by disciples or redactors after 1300 A.D. or 1800 A.D.

But weren't most ancient cities destroyed? Weren't many sites abandoned? One would think that if one wait long enough, eventually any site will be abandoned. While a detailed answer to these questions goes beyond the bounds of this paper, we can briefly say in response: Not necessarily. Tyre's sister city, Sidon, located about 20 miles up coast, serves as a good control for this possibility. Ezekiel prophesies (28:22-23) that Sidon will face war, plague and famine, but he never says that she will never be rebuilt or will be reduced to a small fishing village. Sidon has had a bloody past; for example, in 352 B.C., 40,000 Sidonians locked themselves in their city and set fire to it rather than submit to the Persians.28 Yet today she persists as a small coastal city of Lebanon, a fact which hampers archaeologists from studying the area. Clearly, if Ezekiel or a later editor had simply switched the names of these sister cities in the predictions, neither would have been fulfilled.

Conclusion

Is fulfilled prophecy of value for scholarly apologetics? I would say yes. As I have tried to illustrate with the example of Tyre, it allows us to engage liberal scholarship and respond to liberal attacks on the reliability of Scripture. After all, somebody who wrote or edited the book of Ezekiel was able to predict the future. Moreover, fulfilled prophecy plays a critical role in apologetics because it helps to show that God influences history and therefore may be relevant to our personal lives.

However, it appears to me that conservative biblical scholars have shied away from the serious study of fulfilled prophecy because of the fear of liberal criticism and the sensationalizing publications of trendy popularizers. We need to retrieve this topic from the wastebasket of liberal skepticism and the soapboxes of doomsayers!

http://www.apologetics.com/default.j...-prophecy.html

Richbee · 05-01-2006, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightson

Because it's the most obvious failure of biblical prophecy?

Your hilarious inability to realize this nonwithstanding.

Why don't you and Farrel plan a summer vacation to Tyre?

Go and enjoy the "great city of Tyre", the fourth largest in Lebanon. Hahahahahaha!

A place for fish nets and back water Arab fishing boats. Littl' tiny littl' boats!

Enjoy the glory that was the Kingdon of Tyre, if you can find the old foundations of the old Tyre.

Good luck!

Richbee · 05-01-2006, 10:33 AM

Richbee · 05-01-2006, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farrell Till

Tyre now stands as the fourth largest city in Lebanon and is one of its main seaports. That was surely a dreadful end that it came to, wasn't it?....

The fact that a city exists on this site is clear evidence that the prophecy failed.

Hahahahaha!

Spanky · 05-01-2006, 10:38 AM

Richbee, in no way have you refuted anything. You cut and paste and run away for a month or two. Then you come back, spew off some bs, then claim victory. You take maybe two sentences or two points of Farrell's and then answer them according to what you believe. Fine. However, Farrell has taken everything you said (in the past) and countered it.
If you ever would answer Farrell point by point that would be productive, but this is how you do it:
Example of Richbee's method of madness

Quote:

500 words originally posted by Farrell Till. . .

Quote:

Richbee: Ha ha. ROFLMAO. Your stupid Farrell, and everyone knows this.

Yet you ignore about the other 95% of his arguments. You cannot claim victory in anyway because you have not answered un cazzo! You are in way over your head. I think you need to move on.

Richbee · 05-01-2006, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanky

Richbee, in no way have you refuted anything.

Where did you post an agument or any facts worth discussing?

Do you want to join Fareel Till for a fishing adventure in modern Tyre?

Spanky · 05-01-2006, 10:44 AM

Yes I would like to join him, in fact I feel I could learn a lot from the years of experience he has had.

I have nothing to add because I know nothing about this subject. At least I can admit it. You obviously don't know much about it either. I am here to show you that. You are also a poor excuse for a fellow poster.

Richbee · 05-01-2006, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

...Then you have been lied to. Was this liar a Christian apologist, perchance?

Modern Tyre is in exactly the same place as Biblical Tyre.

I love it, and it's so easy to refute the ignorant here with the facts!

The Old Trye, or what was the "glory" of Tyre is under the rubble of the Greeks, Romans and others, or under water because it was pushed out into the harbor!

Live and learn!

Julian · 05-01-2006, 10:47 AM

[MOD]
Stay on topic and refrain from attacking other posters. This thread is yielding very little of value at this point and is in imminent danger of closure unless some substantive points are made.

Julian
Moderator BC&H
[/MOD]

Richbee · 05-01-2006, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanky

Yes I would like to join him, in fact I feel I could learn a lot from the years of experience he has had.

Yet. he has never been to "modern" tyre!

Quote:

I have nothing to add because I know nothing about this subject. At least I can admit it. You obviously don't know much about it either. I am here to show you that. You are also a poor excuse for a fellow poster.

You're a BUZZ KILLER!

What happened to the gods of Baal in Tyre? You know, the ones that Ezekiel prophesied about?

Do some homework here, or sit down and shut up!

05-01-2006, 10:33 AM	#153
Richbee Banned Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Falls Church, Virginia Posts: 264	Farrel Till fishing for facts in Old Tyre

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05-01-2006, 10:44 AM	#157
Spanky Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: US Posts: 1,216	Yes I would like to join him, in fact I feel I could learn a lot from the years of experience he has had. I have nothing to add because I know nothing about this subject. At least I can admit it. You obviously don't know much about it either. I am here to show you that. You are also a poor excuse for a fellow poster.

05-01-2006, 10:47 AM	#159
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	[MOD] Stay on topic and refrain from attacking other posters. This thread is yielding very little of value at this point and is in imminent danger of closure unless some substantive points are made. Julian Moderator BC&H [/MOD]

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