Wouldn't a phone call to the British Museum clear this up? Is there anyone in England willing to make the local call?

Bob, for about thirty years I’ve referenced a book called The Ancient Near East, an Anthology of Text and Pictures (James B. Pritchard, ed. Princeton University Press). Hopefully these days there are more recent editions out - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...080456-3631968 . It contains a translation of various Ugaritic poems about Baal. Most of these are from tablets that were excavated in the twenties and thirties and are fairly fragmentary. Many of the elements you mention are present in these long fragments, but it’s not all that easy to figure out the story. There is clearly a death and resurrection of Baal, after much lamentation. It should be noted that Baal is a god, and that the story seems to be about gods more than humans or heroes (demigods). I also note that after his resurrection Baal goes out and kicks ass, reminding me more of Revelations than the Gospels or Acts:

Baal seizes the sons of Asherah.
Rabbim he strikes in the back.
Dokyamm he strikes with a bludgeon,
...he fells to earth.
Baal mounts his throne of kingship...

It’s my impression that new texts are being translated on a fairly regular basis, so it wouldn’t surprise me too much if they had a lot more to go on by now.

There is a statment in the bible in revelations that states in chapter 17 verse 5 that says MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.If you read the whole chapter and now the old testament and understand the context(writen by jonh at patmos while christianity was under persecution of nero). Alot of christians believe that this is a prophesy of rome adopting christianity and turning it into an apostacy due to mixing christianity with the Roman state religion which was called mathra i think but the point is that the roman religion that was about when constantine made christianity the state religion was worship of the sungod(baal) (Constantine also worshiped the sungod(baal) before supposedly becoming a christian).Now all festivals and traditions were well established in rome around the ancient babalonian cult of baal and with alot of it`s teaching althou greek mytholigy was also evident baal was also evident in greek mytholigy .The babylonian cult of baal sungod worship is mentioned several times in the old testemantin referances to isreal not being influenced by baal worship as it was always influentale to other religions over periods of time. so alot of christians believe john was warning the church that this would also happened to the church(baal`s influance).As paul also warned the church about this in 2 thessalonians chapter 2 and also prophesys spoken of by daniel concerning the little horn coming out of the othere 10 horns are the 10 germanic tribes that finaly defeated rome untile the papacy poped up (the little horn ) out of the 10 germanic tribes in about 400 to 500 bc. ( these prophesys are proof to christians that the bible is divine in forsite). So alot of christians believe that roman catholisisim is this mystery babylon of revelations and 2 thes ch2 and danial and thats why christianity has lost it`s message and great power that spread throu the known world by the turn of the first century .the true message of jesus seemed to say that he was the long awaited messiah and king of the jews that would bring in the kingdom of god and bring about the resurection of the dead and the defeat of sin and death and finlly to bring about the great judgment of all that have ever lived. THE TRUE GOSPEL IS NOT RELATED TO BAAL BUT CHRISTIANITY DEFFINETLY IS RIDDLED WITH BAAL WORSHIP. CHRISTMAS ON THE 25 DEC IS ALL RELATED TO BAAL AND MANY MORE THINGS STILL IN PRACTICE BY MOST WORLD RELIGIONS ARE INFLUANCEDE BY BAAL .For example , the simalaritys in roman Catholisisim and Budisim (both have rosary beads, forbid to marry, have monks, temples, monisterys,idotitory,shaved heads , wear cloth,and all are attrebuted to baal as far as i can tell.So it throws a spanner in the works for alot of christians but alot also no baal`s influance and for the most part can desiffer the true message of jesus and the hope that is helled in him , if jesus is a fraud then the world is without hope quickly spiralling out of control but if he is not a fraud then there is still hope for the human race.

Well, I really wouldn't put to much stock in Findlay's translation. I saw the word 'psychic' there in relation to Findlay and first thought that perhaps he was writing some sort of expose of the James Randi/Skeptical Inquirer sort. Then I saw that it was published by Psychic Press. So, I did a quick search on Google and...yep...a pro-psychic author. Now I'm not going to waste my time reading about his crap...oops couldn't resist, here's one:The Arthur Findlay College
(For the advancement of Spiritual & Psychic Science)...any more of his crap that is, but if anyone wants to fritter their life away on this tripe just enter "THE PSYCHIC STREAM Arthur Findlay" (without"") on the Google search engine.

Anyone who refuses to listen to someone else's ideas regardless of that person's personal philosophy is guilty of the ad hominem fallacy.

This is a problem, for Democrats and Republicans in the political arena (I have been involved in New Hampshire politics since 1998), for theists and atheists/agnostics in the religious arena, for men and women, for musicians and other artists, etc.

What does his psychic interests got to do with A. Findlay's interest in the Bel Myth?

Is it possible that he is objective and accurate in his reporting of the text of the Babylonian tablet?

How would you determine if or not Findlay is accurate in his reporting?

Is it possible that the Atheist Press could print something truthful and therefore accurate?

Is it possible that the Psychic Press could print something truthful and therefore accurate?

Is it not better to read and evaluate the written words than dismiss them because of your bias against their author?

I have noticed that from time to time good ideas and accurate reports do in fact come from people I would not expect to produce such works, therefore I have to do the best I can not to be biased against someone on a personal basis.

What about you?

[This message has been edited by Bob K (edited June 02, 2001).]

Turtonm: I checked out —
http://uiarchive.uiuc.edu/mirrors/ft...00/7rbaa10.txt
—and found nothing there that would for sure for sure contradict the Bel Myth.

Would you be specific about what I should find therein that would convince me that the Bel Myth is nonsense?

Please keep in mind that specificity is one of the hallmarks and therefore standards of effective communication.

Also, if Campbell is one of the premier mythographers of our time, is he infallible? How can you prove whatever is your answer?

So I should go read his defense of psychic phenomena. Not worth my time. The question is whether I should trust his translation. What are his credentials? The proper way to rebutt me would be to show me his credentials.

He thinks they're related. He tries to link the origins of religion with psychic phenomena.

By his credentials and the opinion of his peers (not his psychic friends, his academic peers...wait, he's wasn't an academic, he was a stockbrocker and farmer). And it's not his reporting I'm interested in, it's his translation (for which he has no qualifications).

Yes.

Only if they stole it from the Atheist press.

Show me his credentials as a translator.



[This message has been edited by not a theist (edited June 02, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob K:
Turtonm: I checked out — [url deleted]
—and found nothing there that would for sure for sure contradict the Bel Myth.

Would you be specific about what I should find therein that would convince me that the Bel Myth is nonsense?

Total silence on this particular myth in a review of religion that dates from the period and references Zimmern.

Also, if Campbell is one of the premier mythographers of our time, is he infallible? How can you prove whatever is your answer?

Well, first, this story has to have been around for some time. Findlay died in 1964. It seems so obvious that mythographers would know about it. Not only that, but it is so sensational mention of it by someone could hardly be avoided.

Second, as someone else pointed out, anyone who is pro-psychic forfeits their credibility in this forum (and anyplace rationalism is esteemed). Findlay endowed a College of Psychic Science which means that he was more than ordinarily credulous, and more than ordinarily committed.

Third, I do not see how being a credulous yammerhead gives Findlay the credentials for translating Babylonian tablets. I read a number of things on the Net, and Findlay appears to have no background in translation of any kind, let alone Near Eastern languages. I could easily be wrong, but it is a loud silence. Here is a capsule biography from a who's who page:

• An English spiritualist and author, founder of the Glasgow Society for Psychic Research, and co-founder of Psychic Press Ltd., which published Psychic News. He spent many years investigating spiritualist phenomena and wrote widely on the subject. His best known book was On the Edge of the Etheric.

At his College I read that he bought the old (15th century) Stanstead Hall upon retirement from business at forty and deeded it to the college when he passed. I am sure Mr. Findlay was a fine businessman (retired at 40!) but nowhere in his history is there any background in Near Eastern languages.

Fourth, Since Findlay's work not only seeks to support pyschic phenomena, but also to use it to undermine organized religion, that is powerful incentive to "creatively interpret" things. Findlay's theory is that psychic phenomena are the cause of religious belief.

I do not know where "proof" would lie, but it seems obvious to me that this is some kind of concoction on Findlay's part, if the attribution to him is true.

Michael

Point of information: A. Findlay was given a copy of the translation of the text on the Babylonian tablet by the curator of the British Museum.

In other words, he did not translate the text, someone else did.

At this point, we do not know who did the translation, but it was not Findlay.

Here is a quote from my previous email wherein Findlay was referenced.

As suggested by Katlynnhow, since we are told that the tablet is real and is available for inspection at the British Museum, it seems reasonable that a lot of speculation could be resolved if we were able to get information directly from the British Museum, particularly the Curator of the Babylonian Section, to find out what's what. If someone from England could do us all a favor and either take a trip to the Museum, take a photo, post it on the net, or else make a phone call and report back to us, then we would have more information to deal with.

Apparently the British Museum is working on a website but it is not available as yet.

One of these days, .... perhaps I'll get around to writing a letter or else making a phone call, ...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob K:
Point of information: A. Findlay was given a copy of the translation of the text on the Babylonian tablet by the curator of the British Museum.

In other words, he did not translate the text, someone else did.

You are right! My apologies. My other points hold, however. Who was mysterious translator. Do you have an ID for the tablet?

Michael