I, offa, call myself a pesher (not pesharist)
and what I write is my interpretation of what I read. My
favorite Jewish author is Josephus and he is also my
#1 teacher. As a pesher I have to follow certain guidelines.
For instance, Jesus was born in 7 b.c.e. because St. Matthew
said so. Jesus was a child when Augustus Caesar's census
took place because St. Luke said so. Josephus tells you
that the first twelve years of a future priest's life
are not counted. Now, if you are familiar with the
Jubilee Calendar you realize that the sixth week of
a 49 year cycle can also be called the sixth day. If you
subtract twelve years from the date Adam counted his
first year the date will fall within the 6th day (Adam was
created on the 6th day). Of course, fundies count Adam's
birth from the very first year so it is difficult for them
to subtract 12 from 1, so, they will never know (about the
zero jubilee). Now, as a pesher I must always follow these
guidelines and, of course, there are many more guidelines
to follow. I have been (unintentionally) pissing off fundies
for years and once in a great while I discover an acorn.
Now, you have to understand that I am a blind squirrel ...
No, I am not a blind squirrel, but if I were, I would
enjoy acorns!
Several weeks ago I learned what Noah's nakedness
was all about because an infidel quoted "LEV 18:8". As
a pesher I now realize that Ham uncovered one of Noah's
wives. Thanks for the acorn, infidel.
I know that Jesus survived the crucifixion and lived
until maybe AD 69. I also know that his feet were not
pierced because the bible never said they were but it said
that his hands and side were. I know that Simon Magus and
Lazarus were the same person and that St. Paul and St.
Peter were his adversaries, and, for this reason, John was
the first gospel written because it is the only one that
tells about the raising of Lazarus.

2sense said,
2sense, I was zapped on that one! Hahaha! I was on the
internet looking for the island of Lesbos when it hit me,
Offa's Dike! I get called lots of names but never a lesbian.
I thought, is Offa a feminine name? never realizing that
you were talking about THE king Offa who is my handle. I
knew about the dike already. Hey, send me an e-mail. I am
a Browns fan and I think the Steelers will be in the
play-offs.

thanks,
offa

2sense

Hi offa,

Sorry for the delay. My wife and I spent our 4th anniversary in Cleveland. We visited the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and then did the obligatory dip into the Flats.

I read your post last nite but I was not sure how to respond. When I read Barbara Thiering's Jesus the Man it really seemed right to me. It resonated, if you know what I mean. But I am unwilling to take the matter on faith. As far as I am concerned, the woman has some good ideas. I also tend to think that Jesus did not die on the cross. This explains the meeting with Saul nicely. Saul's "blindness" is "cured". Although this miracle is related in the same manner as others, standard interpretations do not make the connection that those could also be allegorical as well. Pesher interpretation at least is consistant.

I don't agree about the use of the pesher for the old testament. Those books were not written in a uniform style, they were written at across centuries, and the evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls pesharists is not consistant.

I'm not sure if this is the discussion that you are looking for.
For me, I would be happy for more information on Dr Thiering's work, particularly from a critical point of view. Also I haven't read Jesus the Messiah. Getting the first book was difficult enough. I had to get it sent from Australia for far more than I am normally willing to spend on books.

If you have some questions about The Bloodline of the Holy Grail then go ahead and ask. The author does disagree with Thiering on a few points but I find the book unreliable. It is obviously not written by a professional historian due to the infallible tone. I am interested in pre-Conquest ( 1066 ) Brittain and I have never read a single author that firmly fixed King Arthur in time or location. Even the date of the Battle of Mt Badon is conjectural and debated. Yet Mr. Gardner ( whom I have heard is a shady Belgian ) places him in a complete genealogy from Jesus to people living today.
-

Glad you got my little joke.
Although I live in Pittsburgh, I was born in Detroit. I am a Lions fan first but I do like the Steelers. The Brownies are coming to town a week from Sunday and the Steeler faithfull are begining to convince themselves that they will win that game, if they can get past the Bungles first.

My email address is visible here. If you click on the profile or email icon at the bottom of my posts you can email me easily.

----------------
Just my 2sense

2sense

Er, make that the icons at the top of my post to email me or see my profile.
I jump back and forth between UBB and vBulletin boards. Sometimes I get confused by the differences.

Also, I tend not to edit.

-----------
Just my 2sense

Hi 2sense, the greatest time I had this summer was going to "Hooters" in the Flats. At least I think Hooters is in the flats. We left an Indians game in about the 6th inning because we wanted to converse. My son-in-law will replace Sandy Alomar year after next. Of course, he will not replace him, he is simply the Indians next catcher. He gets us free tickets whenever we ask him.
I hope to have enough time on Sunday to write about Galilee. One of the posters wrote about Galilee and the Pharisees. My take is that Galilee was the same as Qumran, I mean, Jesus never ventured out of the immediate area on the north west shores of the Dead Sea. I have had a long and beautiful day working in Avon pouring concrete. Hope to reply again on Sunday.
thanks,
Offa

2sense

Hi offa,

I grok the "it all happened in Qumran" argument. My questions concern the how valid this argument is. Did the original Greek gospels differentiate between Jerusalem as a singular noun and Jerusalem as a plural noun? I don't know. I find the pesher explanation of walking on water to be compelling but this does not make it true.

I am interested in your beliefs about the creation of the Old Testament. How do you justify using a uniform system of interpretation for such widely different books?

Also, are you familiar with the pesher interpretations found in the Dead Sea Scrolls?

----------
Just my 2sense

[quote]
<B>offa</B>,

I grok the "it all happened in Qumran" argument. My questions concern
the how valid this argument is. Did the original Greek gospels
differentiate between Jerusalem as a singular noun and Jerusalem as a
plural noun? I don't know. I find the pesher explanation of walking
on water to be compelling but this does not make it true.
<P>
[/B]
Offa;
First of all, I write my own stuff and I follow guidelines.
Flavius Josephus is my favorite source because he tells the
reader how to read Scripture, for instance;

Antiquities 13.313 As he was saying this, and that in a melancholy
mood, the news came that Antigonas was slain in a place under
ground, which itself was called also Strato's Tower or of the same
name with that Cesarea which is seated at the sea. This event put
the prophet into a great disorder.

The above passage tells us that the Essenes used a style which
included multiple names for locations. Antigonas was slain in
Jerusalem at a place known locally as Antonia's Tower. The story
I was going to tell was about Herod's bringing law and order
to Samaria and Galilee and about the robbers in the caves. This
story is found in Antiquities, Book 14. What Josephus'
is telling the alert reader is that Galilee is on the shores
of the Dead Sea.

I remarked that I borrowed the word "pesher" from Thiering
and that I am a "pesher" and not a "pesharist". I do not know
Greek and thus have to take Thiering to her word that the
plural "Jerusalem" meant Qumran. I already had the knowledge
that places mentioned in Scripture had multiple names and that
there were multiple Egypt's (before I read Thiering).

The "Catholic Bible" notes that "Acts 12:25" is problematic
because it says that "Paul and Barnabas" returned to
Jerusalem, when, in fact, they already were in Jerusalem.
In other words, there are more than one Jerusalem.

I feel as a pesher that the "Old Testament" was a re-write
of the "Book of Jubilees". The reason I feel this way is because
in "Jubilees" a few of the patriarchs survive Noah's Flood and
in "Genesis" they do not. The way "Genesis" glossed over the
dating of the Flood was by adding 100 years to the begatting of
Enoch, Methuselah, and Noah as compared with "Jubilees". In
doing this the birth of Noah occurs 300 years later and thus
no patriarch survived other than "Noah".

I use the "Old King James" version of the Bible as well
a the "Works" of Josephus as interpreted by William Whiston.
Both books have a similar style. My "Book of Jubilees" was
edited by James Charlesworth. I have other books in my
library and I carefully read the stories with my knowledge
of multiple names for locations, the pharaoh was Haran,
the widow woman in "The Book of Kings" was Tamar. I know
that the people in Scripture have multiple names and that
stories are repeated allowing an inconsistency of chronology.

<QUOTE>
Also, are you familiar with the pesher interpretations found in
the Dead Sea Scrolls?
</QUOTE>

I know why Qumran was destroyed by Rome and also why the
scrolls were hidden in the caves. I also realize that
some of them were written back in b.c.e., However, I can not
find a "Wicked Priest" vs. a "Teacher of Rigtheousness"
from a period in and around Maccabees. I am not aware of
pesher interpretations in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

thanks,
offa

2sense

I'm still around offa, I'm just not sure how to reply.
You seem to be taking a lot on faith.

-----------
Just my 2sense

Pesher is the interpretations of dreams. A pesher
interprets dreams. It can be said that
this leaves too much leeway to the pesher. A pesher
knows better because liars are put
to death (ignored).

A pesher has to follow
guidelines. Quoting sources who are unaware of pesher is
fruitless. The opposite of pesher is ideal which is
defined as "lacking practicality" (not theoretical, that
is, hypothetical or conjectural', i.e., inference from
defective evidence').

My statement, "Show me in the bible where it says his
(Jesus') feet were pierced and then I will believe" is
pesher. I know that there is not an authentic scripture
that says that his feet were pierced. In other words, a
pesher knows that any household with an idol of Jesus on
the cross with his feet pierced is a household without a
free mind. Using the ideal language the same
person is a hypocrite. Using pesher, the same person is a
hypocrite. Choose your preference.

A Josephus pesher; book 17, The Antiquities of the Jews.

(165) Now it happened, that during the time of the
high priesthood of this Matthias, there was another
person made priest for a single day, that very day which
the Jews observed as a fast.
(166) The occasion was this: - This Matthias the high
priest, on the night before that day when the fast was to
be celebrated, seemed, in a dream, to have
conversation with his wife; and because he could not
officiate himself on that account, Joseph, the son of
Ellemeus, his kinsman assisted him in that sacred office.
(167) But Herod deprived this Matthias of the high
priesthood, and burnt the other Matthias, who raised the
sedition, with his companions alive. And that very night
there was an eclipse of the moon.

A pesher knows that the dream was an actual event. I
mean, pardon my vulgarity, but, Matthias screwed his
wife. His superstition caused him to relinquish is right
to be the deity on this most holy day. Matthias truly
believed in GOD but his dream was real. Matthias had an
ejaculation. Also, this righteous priest (free from guilt
or sin), will have had a harem and in his harem would be
teenagers and he will have been a married man of at least
thirty years of age. Go figure.

thanks, this is for your entertanment,
offa

That's why I always assumed you where a closet Welshman offa. BTW did you know that the dike failed in it's function of separating the two races because it was so easy to bribe the border guards? Hence the term "Open to Offa's"

Boro Nut

Interesting, my curiousity is piqued. Thank you for the tidbit.

rex_offa