I'm not defending the policies of the state capitalist regimes of China and the USSR. I am just skeptical of how churches fared in the USSR and in China. To me it seemed as though it was more like the situation in ancient Rome. Other religions were tolerated, and some that were perceived as anti-social were persecuted. Even the alternative view (to yours) of state capitalist countries that I am submitting deserves condemnation.

I completely support the student protesters at Tienamen Square, and I thought the repression (and the US's weak response) was despicable. But that was a democracy movement, and did not have a religious focus (unless you count the Goddess of Democracy statue that was promoted at the rally).

And no, I haven't spoken to any Russian Orthodox priests about the state of religion during the USSR. I would speak to them first because complaints from evangelicals from the USSR that I've read in Baptist missionary journals are that they won't allow evangelicals to practice. This is a terrible situation, but it shows that the state capitalist countries had preferences and that not all religions were treated the same.

In short, I think the picture you present is too oversimplified.

I am also curious about the numbers in Germany. The GDR was state capitalist from 1945-1989 (44 years). For the GDR government to have such an ideological effect in such a short amount of time is indeed remarkable. Do you have access to the numbers of atheists in the former USSR? It would be interesting to compare the two.

[This message has been edited by Le pede (edited July 03, 2001).]

Your uninformed opinion is duly noted.

Feel free to flesh it out and explain how the Soviet Union and communist China did not oppress religious belief.

[This message has been edited by Layman (edited July 03, 2001).]

This was in one of my first posts in this thread.

The former USSR, as of 1994, had 56 million atheists.

I want to be clear what I am claiming. I am claiming that the growth in atheism in this century is largely attributable to oppressive government coercion. That is, most of atheism's success can be attributed to the backing of the government and the oppression of its theistic opponents. Does this mean that all theists were hunted down and killed? No. Nor was that my claim. But the persecution is undeniable. You seem to think the fact that there were some state controlled churches allowed to operate that there was no goverment persecution or oppression. I think that is silly and rather desparate. There were spies in the "official" state church and it was run by communists. Moreover, even participation in one of the official churches was not without its consequences. The communist party required its members to be atheists. And to obtain any political power or governmental office, one had to be a member of the communist party.

Christians were imprisoned. Christians were beaten. And Christians were killed. Bibles and other Christian literature was burned. Atheism was actively promoted by the government.

According to a website Turton provided, the top three countries in the world with the most athiests were formerly communist bloc countries. And, this survey did not include China, North Korea, or Vietnam.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

[This message has been edited by Layman (edited July 03, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ish:
Michael, even as a "dumb" Christian, I understand that Layman's points are tinged with a little bit of sarcasm aimed at those who constantly blame bad events in "Christian" history on all Christians. I see those non-Christian arguments against Christianity just as silly as you perhaps see Layman's arguments. In other words, I do not consider myself a "dumb" Christian.

Ish

You're right, I should not have used the word "dumb." For that I apologize. I found Layman's amoral and ahistorical stance horrifying and offensive, and reacted accordingly.

Michael

No wonder you can;t find it; it's on another page at the same site.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_B...#Nonreligious:

In the Western world, Europe is by far the place with the most self-avowed nonreligious, atheists and agnostics, with the nonreligious proportion of the population particularly high in Scandinavia. The Encyclopedia Britannica reports approximately 41 million atheists in Europe.

Sorry for sending you on a wild goose chase.

Michael

Layman got confused as to which of my quotes he was responding to. It's just a miswriting.

Michael

Layman's whole point is absurd, and has already been answered. The Communists persecuted the Churches because they wish to stamp out competing authoritarian systems. Once the Churches are brought under control -- and of course the Christian Churches are always happy to serve authoritarian regimes, as we know from many examples -- then the State is happy.

You know, I've read tons of atheist writing, and I can't ever recall anyone regarding Russia as a "success" for atheism. We're not Christians, Layman, measuring our achievements by the body count. Since we don't believe in indoctrination, we find thought control horrifying, unlike Christians, who start by poisoning their children with the scurrilous garbage, and call constantly for curbs on art, on textbooks, on historical and scientific debate and discovery, and on the thoughts and behavior of others (Wanna visit a snakepit of sexual and physical abuse, Layman? Don't visit a liberal community in Minnesota, go stay with the Amish). Judging from the calls for more hate and intolerance from the Christian Right, the existence of a Christian political party dedicated to a murderous totalitarian theocratic state, the close links between right-wing Christian groups, hate groups, racist groups, and other right-wing religious organizations (such as between the Moonies and Moral Majority), I can only assume that your relative impotence and the secular values of the majority of the population is all that stands between us and a theocratic, Christian hell on earth.

I know what you were expressing, Layman, and it was certainly not horror at the idea of indoctrination in a state cult. No, listening to you people talk, I hear a wistful, jealous wish that you all had the same power that the Russian state had to control the minds and bodies of its people.

Once again, only someone completely amoral could call forced indoctrination a "success."
As several of us on this thread have already said, it is totally sick to call the substitution of one authoritarian cult for another a "success."

One other thing: they EXECUTED atheists during the French Revolution. Do you know who Jacques Rene Herbert was?

Michael

[This message has been edited by turtonm (edited July 03, 2001).]

The point has hardly been rejected. It is undisputable. Athiesm has been most succesful when backed up by oppressive governmental coercion. In those countries were atheism has prospered the most, the government of that country has actively promoted it and oppressed its opponents.

Christianity is not a competing authoritarian system. The underground churches in the former Soviet Union and communist China are in no way competeing authoritarian regimes. They are not intent on seeking power or imposing a theocracy. They want to worship God. They are not free to do so.

You apparently have not read the full range of atheistic writings, because in all probability a significant portion of atheist writings have been produced in communist countries that oppress religion and have justified such oppression. Are you being ethnocentric here? Probably not, just conveniently selective.

The rest of your diabtribe is rather pointless and besides the point. Most atheists in this century don't share your puprotedly nonevangelistic anti-indoctrination brand of atheism. Most have supported oppressive governments that have actively sought to promote atheism by indoctrinating the young in the earliest levels of school and oppressing theists.

Certainly not. You are letting your own bigotry show here. Despite my categorical statements to the contrary, you presume to know that I am really an evil theocract intent on establishing a theocracy. You presume that despite my denouncement of government oppression and my support for freedom of religion, I secretly want to hunt down skeptics, imprison them, beat them, and murder them. But the only basis for your presumptive knowledge of my innermost thoughts is that I am a Christian.

A demonstration of your anti-religious bigotry could not be more clear. I'm not like the majority of atheists have been this century. I believe in freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

I am the one denouncing the atheistic forced indoctrination in the former USSR and communist China. You, KCTAN, and Le Pede are the one's soft peddling it and, in some cases, seeking to justify it.

Well now. You seem to have missed the point again. Rather than respond to the evidence I put forward that the Reign of Terror included atheistic oppression of Christianity, you have referred me to an atheist that was execude during the French Revolution. I didn't say that no atheists were killed during the Reign of Terror. I said that the CPS, mostly composed of atheists and skeptical agnostics and NO Christians, oppressed Christianity.

As for Herbert, I'm skeptical that the atheistic Committee for Public Safety had him killed because he was an atheist. More likely, he was sympathetic to the Royalist or some sort of capitalist. The acttions the CPS took against the Christians I detailed above were taken because the CPS was mostly atheistic and the Christians were Christians.

Of course, anything is possible with those wacky atheists on the CPS. Robsepierre himself fell prey to his own invention. The CPS became famous for eating its own.




[This message has been edited by Layman (edited July 03, 2001).]

Well. I find your bigotry and mischaracterization disapointing. I can't say that I'm horrified by it. I've come to expect it from you. Moral outrage is a often times used as a substitute for rational argument.

What is ahistorical about the fact that atheism has gained the majority of its adherents by government coercion and oppression? That is simply a fact. Certainly oppressive, coervice atheistic regimes have produced more atheists per capita than free, societies have. How else do you explain the numbers in E. Germany v. W. Germany and the Soviet Union v. the United States. Even France, no home to the religious right, is 90% Catholic with only 2 million atheists.

What is amoral about recognizing the above-mentioned fact? I have expressed my disapproval of such tactics and my belief in freedom of speech and freedom of religion. I don't approve or view what these atheists have done as good or amoral. I view it as horrifying.

Le Pede and Koy,

For your review:

"Estimates for atheism alone range from 200 to 240 million. But these come primarily from China and former Soviet Union nations (especially Russia). Prior to Communist takeovers of these regions and government attempts to eradicate religion, both places had very high levels of affiliation with organized religions (especially Islam, Christianity, Buddhism and Taoism), as well as high levels of participation in and belief in traditional local traditions such as shamanism, ancestor ceremonies, spiritism, etc. Since the fall of Communism in former Soviet nations and the relaxation of anti-religious policies in China, observed religious affiliation and activity has increased dramatically, especially in Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam."

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_B...#Nonreligious:

[This message has been edited by Layman (edited July 03, 2001).]