If you want to learn about the gospels you have to
reverence Josephus.

It is quite obvious that the ancient Jewish scholars
were one hell of a lot smarter than we are today!

Josephus needs to be carefully read. Do not skim over what
he writes. It is really not that difficult. He stays on the
same pattern and after a while you pick up the queue. When
you learn to read Josephus properly then reading the
archaic Scripture is much easier.

Just opening the book, The Life of Flavius Josephus
he tells you

(9) Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen
years of age, I was commended by all for the love
I had to learning; on which account the high priests and
principle men of the city came then frequently to me
together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate
understanding of points of the law;

This kind of sounds like

Luke 02:42 And when he was twelve years old,
they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

Luke 02:43 And when they had fulfilled the days,
as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in
Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.

Luke 02:44 But they, supposing him to have been
in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him
among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.

Luke 02:45 And when they found him not, they
turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.

Luke 02:46 And it came to pass, that after three
days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of
the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

Luke 02:47 And all that heard him were
astonished at his understanding and answers.


The problem is easily solved when the twelve-year rule is evoked,
that is, show me any where in the bible that it says that "begat"
means "date of Birth". Begat means Bar Mitzvah and a twelve year
old Jew is 23 years old and he sure as hell better be smarter
than a twelve-year old pagan.

I seldom see the [b]Book of Jubilees[\B] cited on this board.
Jubilees gives the dates for the births and deaths of the
Patriarchs. If you use a Zero Jubilee, that is, adding
a period of 49 years ahead of the 1st Jubilee Adam will have
died in the year 979 instead of the year 930. Using this scheme
Adam will be "Begat" in the year 49 as a 12 year old (subtract
his 930 years from the year 979). This means
that when God had sexual intercourse with his spouse some
12 years (+ 9 1/2) months previously he will have "Created"
Adam in the year 36 (of the Zero Jubilee), which year, I might
add, falls on the 6th day of week of Jubilee 00. Genesis 1:26/31
says that man was created on the sixth day.

(FYI, a Jubilee is 49 years and this 49 year period
can also be called a week of 7 days with each day being
a period of seven years.)

The important thing is do not get tied up on the longevity of the
Patriarchs but pay attention to their birthdates. Of course
they did not live that long, but, in order to gain the
correct chronology you have to add twelve even to
Methuselah's years to get the correct birth year.

Josephus writes the following, (1-88)
These years, collected together, make up the sum
before set down; but let no one inquire into the deaths
of these men, for they extended their lives along
together with their children and grandchildren; but let
him have regard to their births only.

On page 462 of The Antiquities of the Jews
William Whiston explains that king Herod the Great
died in the year 4 b.c.e. On page 376 he explains that
Herod died at about 70 years of age. This means that
Herod was born about 74 b.c.e. Herod was made governor of
Galilee (Qumran) after Pompey was murdered in 48 b.c.e.
King Herod the Great should be about 26 years old at this
time but Josephus calls him 15 years of age. William
Whiston notices this discrepancy (page 376).

When one of these ancients of the Essene tradition
celebrate their Bar Mitzvah they become a one year
old child. Josephus was trained as an Essene as was
king Herod the Great (page 422, Herod was taught by
Manahem). Reading Josephus one will discover several
heroes addressed as a Child who commit heroic deeds
which lose their magnanimity when you realize that you
should add 11 years to their ages.

It should be common knowledge to infidels that Jesus was
a two year old when king Herod died. Josephus cites the
census taken by Augustus Caesar on page 478. It occurred
37 years after the Battle of Actium and this battle
occurred in the year 31 b.c.e. Thus the census took place
in year A.D. 6 when Jesus will celebrate his Bar Mitzvah
and become a 1 year old Child. The swaddling clothes
mentioned are the new garb that he will now wear. Fundies
thinking about diapers are being deluded.

thanks, offa

Today both of the soccer teams I coach lost, but they played well, and at least my daughter scored two goals, and my son didn't lose his head when he played goalie.

Michael

Hmmmm... ever encounter the term "doe snot"? (You're clearly familar with the concept, but I'm just wondering how widely used the phrase is.)

Jeez, I've heard of "Aussie Rules" football, but "Aztec Rules" is going a bit far, don't you think?

I suppose my post is quite irrelevant. I wonder what "moderator" means or what qualities are required to be called, "moderator". I enjoy confronting fundies and encountering their insults. I have noticed you two replying on other posts and adhere to your intelligence.

Thanks, offa

It is quite irrelevant. And that is the problem. Originally I wrote a quite long post, quite serious, asking why you post here. But I dumped it. You don't get many interactions, and you haven't responded when I asked you questions. You have bizarre theories that nobody else but you seems to believe, or even understand.

On the other hand, perhaps you are right and I as a moderator should not have posted like that. I apologize.

In any case, just what is it you believe?

Michael

Originally posted by offa: I suppose my post is quite
irrelevant. I wonder what "moderator" means or what qualities
are required to be called, "moderator". I enjoy confronting
fundies and encountering their insults. I have noticed you
two replying on other posts and adhere to your intelligence.

Thanks, offa

Turtonm
It is quite irrelevant. And that is the problem. Originally I
wrote a quite long post, quite serious, asking why you post here.

Offa;

Here is an excerpt from Richard Carrier;


The Date of the Nativity in Luke (2000)

Richard Carrier

It is indisputable that Luke dates the birth of Jesus to 6 A.D.
It is also indisputable that Matthew dates the birth of Jesus to
6 B.C. (or some year before 4 B.C.). This is an irreconcilable
contradiction.



Why don't you go tell Carrier that his mistake is "irrelevant"?


I suppose I am not welcome? When I post it is about Biblical
Criticism and not about my daughter's softball game.

I am an atheist. I know Jesus Christ existed. This fundie forum
has welcomed questions like, "Did Jesus exist?", "Did Paul the
Apostle exist?", "Did Julius Caesar exist?". Everybody asks me
for references, but nobody gives any. Now, Turtonm, is there a
specific question you would like to ask?

thanks, offa


[This message has been edited by offa (edited May 12, 2001).]

In defense of offa, I for one will openly state that I almost always find his posts intriguing if somewhat poorly documented. In some ways they are quite a nice counterbalance to the extreme mythicist position, instead taking an extreme historicist position. Even if one doesn't agree with offa (as I usually don't), his posts often inspire a new way of looking at the Biblical narratives. An example of this can be seen in the thread that Ish just started "Was Methuselah a bad guy?", where he admits that it was one of offa's posts that got him thinking about the topic. I am truly amazed that the mythicist position would be treated with any respect around here while offas, which at least tries to find interesting historical interpretations, would not be. Do I agree with offa 100%? No. Probably not even 10%. But my very disagreements cause me to think more deeply about the issues he mentions. I always DO enjoy reading his posts for their extreme heterodoxy which at the same time attempts to remain close to the text.

not a theist, I almost hate to admit it, but I think I agree with you about Offa. I can't think of a thing that Offa has said that I find accurate or completely understandable, but some of his posts have actually challenged me to think about things in a different way. Perhaps therein lies his merit... He must be some sort of a muse.

Ish

Now, Turtonm, is there a
specific question you would like to ask?

thanks, offa


[This message has been edited by offa (edited May 12, 2001).][/B]

Why, yes! Thanks for answering my question, BTW.

I have never understood your "two galilees" idea, and you never seemed to answer the people who asked. What does it mean? What is the evidence for it? Does this mode of thinking have a label?

Michael

Michael, you have to go in stages and realize what a great
writer Josephus was. Had he been any less skillful the
theists would have torn his writings to shreds and we
in the 21st century would not have, in our hands, a
glimmer of the past. The active participants on this
II board have the opportunity to gain first hand knowledge
by learning to think without dogma. Instead of quoting
the fabled "biblical scholars" we may be able to make
our own decisions with the knowledge of what we discover
is new. Did you notice that I moved the birthdate of
Josephus back 11 years? Am I going to change history?
The answer to both questions is; NO! I cannot move
Josephus' birthday nor can I change history.

Josephus writes; (13-313)[ Antigonas was slain in
a place under ground, which itself was called also Strato's
Tower or of the same name with that Cesarea which is seated
at the sea.

What Josephus is telling the alert reader is that multiple
names are used for locations. Just because he tells us this
trivia just one time does not mean that his writings are not
inundated with multiple names for locations.

If you read Josephus' book 14 and about the robber Hezekias
(159)who led a band that dwelt in caves(415). Josephus returns
to the same story several times. The geographical description
of these caves in Galilee fit the description of the caves
of the location of the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

This Galilee and Qumran are also the location of the sect of
Essenes and this is where Herod went to school and his teacher
was Menahem(15-373). His art of writing is to tell the same
stories in locations (text locations) that are remote, like
piecing together 14-159 and 14-415. Another interesting
puzzle comes to mind, who was Hezekias? was he also Menahem?

If the Qumran area is also Galilee it stands to reason that
Jesus of Nazareth is from this Galilee.

One of my bibles has this footnote, They returned to
Jerusalem; many manuscripts read "from Jerusalem" since
11,30 implies that Paul and Barnabas are already in Jerusalem.
This footnote is describing ACTS 12:25. I have no problem
with this because I am aware of another Jerusalem.

I call my thought "pesher" and it kind of means "muse".

thanks,
offa