Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 11-15-2001, 10:52 AM

Team Is Ready to Publish Full Set of Dead Sea Scrolls

Quote:

Although there is no mention of Jesus or John the Baptist, or anything resembling the religious movement described in the New Testament, scholars said the scrolls give them a richer understanding of the Jewish world during the life of Jesus.

. . .

In interviews, Dr. Tov and others associated with the project said that nothing in the scrolls is likely to shake religious foundations.

Kosh · 11-15-2001, 12:15 PM

Quote:

From the article:
In interviews, Dr. Tov and others associated with the project said that nothing
in the scrolls is likely to shake religious foundations.

Such reverberations were once thought possible, causing great concern among
some religious leaders. An argument for ensuring the wide dissemination of the
texts was that it would end lingering suspicions that the original editors were
suppressing publication of documents for fear that they would cast Judaism or
early Christianity in a bad light.

Not wanting to sound like a conspiracy nut
here, but I submit that there was still
plenty of time in the early years for such
supression to occur. Entire documents could
have been, uh, censored....

Echo · 11-15-2001, 02:42 PM

I've never bought into the DSS censorship theories because there just doesn't seem like any reason anyone would want to do such a thing.

What could the DSS contain that could possibly be of belief-shaking importance to either Judaism or Christianity?

I find it fascinating that the DSS contains so many interesting apocryphal and pseudepigraphal writings, but both Jews and Christians can write these off as sectarian writings that were not divinely inspired and are useful only for their historical interest. I see no reason anyone would want to suppress or cover those up, even if they contained inflammatory passages.

Discrepancies found between the canonical texts found among the DSS and our modern translations can (and will) be summarily dismissed with the standard "only the originals were inerrant" excuse.

I'm not up on conspiracy theories regarding the DSS, so aside from translation discrepancies and the presence of additional books in the DSS, what kind of information do people suspect that the DSS might contain that would be worth covering up?

Marduk · 11-15-2001, 04:12 PM

"what kind of information do people suspect that the DSS might contain that would be worth covering up?"

There are some references to a 'Righteous Prophet' and and evil deciever or something, I guess the idea is along the lines of Jesus being an Essene Preist who lived 100 years before he should have, with no comming back from the dead stuff, the other scenario is he was the bad guy and the RP was someone else, John the Baptist perhaps. I saw something on A & E about this, a lot of the so called miracles were supposed to be Essene code words (they were a very secretive cult);
walk on water meant to take people to be Baptized
Taken to Heaven by a cloud meant a preist took you to Qumran
They supposedly had names for each other like Abraham, the Father etc. highly speculative.

Berenger Sauniere · 11-15-2001, 06:19 PM

Used the right way the scrolls can unravel Christianity. One more thing, the story that the scrolls were accidently found: total bullsh*t.

Koyaanisqatsi · 11-29-2001, 07:00 AM

The most damning elements of the dead sea scrolls (the Gnostic Gospels) are already evident--that Jesus was nothing more than, in essence, a spiritual teacher who told everyone that god is within you and you didn't need anyone (including himself) to find the god within (this is a summary of the Gospel of Thomas)--and those have already been dismissed as "heretical" centuries ago, so that's all it takes to dismiss them today.

Let's face it. This is a cult we're talking about, based entirely on a pack of control lies, so I agree, there would be no need to redact or alter the texts in any sort of "official" or conspiratorial fashion, though I wouldn't put it past any one particular over-zealous translator to modify this or obscure that, which has been historically true. I think Dostoyesvki indirectly addressed this issue rather effectively in the <a href="http://www.hideinplainwebsite.com/Grand.html" target="_blank">Grand Inquisitor</a> section of the Brothers K.

hezekiah jones · 11-29-2001, 07:08 AM

Not to nitpick, but wasn't the Gospel of Thomas found among the documents at Nag Hammadi in Egypt?

Pantera · 11-29-2001, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hezekiahjones:
Not to nitpick, but wasn't the Gospel of Thomas found among the documents at Nag Hammadi in Egypt?

Yes - the Gospel of Thomas (Gnostic Christian, probably 2nd Century AD, though the Nag Hammadi manuscript is somewhat later) is entirely seperate from the Dead Sea Scrolls (Essene Jewish, 1st century BC).

Unless you buy into the conspiracy theories, of course.

Koyaanisqatsi · 11-29-2001, 07:55 AM

Pardon the lapse. I meant any of the scrolls uncovered, whether at Nag Hammadi or Qumran or wherever. I just lump those all together, because to me, they're all part of the same uber conspiracy, the christian cult.

My bad.

Kosh · 11-29-2001, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
Pardon the lapse. I meant any of the scrolls uncovered, whether at Nag Hammadi or Qumran or wherever. I just lump those all together, because to me, they're all part of the same uber conspiracy, the christian cult.

Details? Links? Books?

First I've heard of this one.

Actually, this post is directed toward Berenger.

"Hey kid, we'll give you a Coke if you climb into
those caves and see what you can find...."

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: Kosh ]

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11-15-2001, 02:42 PM	#3
Echo Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Winter Park, Fl USA Posts: 411	I've never bought into the DSS censorship theories because there just doesn't seem like any reason anyone would want to do such a thing. What could the DSS contain that could possibly be of belief-shaking importance to either Judaism or Christianity? I find it fascinating that the DSS contains so many interesting apocryphal and pseudepigraphal writings, but both Jews and Christians can write these off as sectarian writings that were not divinely inspired and are useful only for their historical interest. I see no reason anyone would want to suppress or cover those up, even if they contained inflammatory passages. Discrepancies found between the canonical texts found among the DSS and our modern translations can (and will) be summarily dismissed with the standard "only the originals were inerrant" excuse. I'm not up on conspiracy theories regarding the DSS, so aside from translation discrepancies and the presence of additional books in the DSS, what kind of information do people suspect that the DSS might contain that would be worth covering up?

11-15-2001, 04:12 PM	#4
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"what kind of information do people suspect that the DSS might contain that would be worth covering up?" There are some references to a 'Righteous Prophet' and and evil deciever or something, I guess the idea is along the lines of Jesus being an Essene Preist who lived 100 years before he should have, with no comming back from the dead stuff, the other scenario is he was the bad guy and the RP was someone else, John the Baptist perhaps. I saw something on A & E about this, a lot of the so called miracles were supposed to be Essene code words (they were a very secretive cult); walk on water meant to take people to be Baptized Taken to Heaven by a cloud meant a preist took you to Qumran They supposedly had names for each other like Abraham, the Father etc. highly speculative.

11-15-2001, 06:19 PM	#5
Berenger Sauniere Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: et in Arcadia ego... Posts: 406	Used the right way the scrolls can unravel Christianity. One more thing, the story that the scrolls were accidently found: total bullsh*t.

11-29-2001, 07:00 AM	#6
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	The most damning elements of the dead sea scrolls (the Gnostic Gospels) are already evident--that Jesus was nothing more than, in essence, a spiritual teacher who told everyone that god is within you and you didn't need anyone (including himself) to find the god within (this is a summary of the Gospel of Thomas)--and those have already been dismissed as "heretical" centuries ago, so that's all it takes to dismiss them today. Let's face it. This is a cult we're talking about, based entirely on a pack of control lies, so I agree, there would be no need to redact or alter the texts in any sort of "official" or conspiratorial fashion, though I wouldn't put it past any one particular over-zealous translator to modify this or obscure that, which has been historically true. I think Dostoyesvki indirectly addressed this issue rather effectively in the <a href="http://www.hideinplainwebsite.com/Grand.html" target="_blank">Grand Inquisitor</a> section of the Brothers K.

11-29-2001, 07:08 AM	#7
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Not to nitpick, but wasn't the Gospel of Thomas found among the documents at Nag Hammadi in Egypt?

11-29-2001, 07:55 AM	#9
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	Pardon the lapse. I meant any of the scrolls uncovered, whether at Nag Hammadi or Qumran or wherever. I just lump those all together, because to me, they're all part of the same uber conspiracy, the christian cult. My bad.

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