Warning: Some of this has been stated on another thread. If this bothers you, then feel free to avoid reading it again.

On another thread, Ish made the following claim: "Jesus' main message was one of love for one's neighbor which he demonstrated constantly." I disagreed and said so.

Since that thread has gotten rather untidy (too many side issues), I thought I would start a thread devoted exclusively to the question of what Jesus'"message" was, based on the text of the NT. For the sake of argument, I will presume the existence of Jesus as an historical person.

Here is what I consider to be evidence demonstrating that Jesus' MAIN message had nothing at all to do with love:

"In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan...Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel.'" (Mk. 1:9;14-15)

"And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity....These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, 'Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And preach as you go, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons." (Mt. 10:1; 5-8) Note: A Jewish prophet was expected to "heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, etc."

"'And if any place will not receive you and they refuse to hear you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet for a testimony against them.' So they went out and preached that men should repent." (Mk. 6:11-12)

"For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.' And he said to them, 'Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that kingdom of God has come with power.'" (Mk. 8:38-39.)

"For truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of man comes." (Mt. 10:23)

"For the Son of man is to come with the angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done." (Mt. 16:27)

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne." (Mt. 25:31)

"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven....'Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place...But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.'" (Mk. 13:24-27;30-32)

I think Jesus' MAIN message was directed toward his fellow Israelites. Jesus paraphrased: "Repent, for the Day of Judgment is near. The Son of man will arrive in the clouds and judge the sinners of Israel. Be ready, for his arrival could occur at any moment, but if not, definitely during your lifetime."

rodahi

[This message has been edited by rodahi (edited June 13, 2001).]

rodahi,

I will be surprised if any "experienced" apologists touch this thread. Things will quickly get problematic as, despite the fact that a case can be made that the Jesus message is a love message, there remain those nasty biblical incidents of genocide and infanticide, just to name a couple, that destroy any serious argument for devotion from love.

The benign monarchs of christianity remain multipolar at best.

joe

Hmmm. For once I think I may be agreeing with you. Did Jesus preach repentance? Yes. I think He emphasized that the most, always speaking of the kingdom of heaven. But His message was preached out of love for humans, because God wills that none should perish.

One mistake, minor- a Jewish prophet was not necessarily expected to heal the sick, raise the dead, or cast out demons. They were primarily just messengers. But Jesus gave the apostles authority to do these things.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TrueThinker:
Hmmm. For once I think I may be agreeing with you. Did Jesus preach repentance? Yes. I think He emphasized that the most, always speaking of the kingdom of heaven.

I agree that Jesus said his fellow Israelites should repent, but the focus of his message was on the imminent Day of Judgement. The judge was to be the Son of man.

TrueThinker: But His message was preached out of love for humans, because God wills that none should perish.

I totally disagree. You are reading into the text something that is simply not there. Surely, Jesus did not believe that Yahweh "willed that none should perish." For example, Jesus says to his chosen disciples, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Mt. 10:5-6) This conclusively demonstrates the "message" was intended for Israelites and no one else. From the beginning of his existence (as he arose in the mind of ancient Hebrews), Yahweh played favorites. This is conclusively demonstrated by the text of the OT.

Also, Yahweh himself, according to the OT, exterminated millions of his creatures. At other times he had his chosen hit men do it. What makes you think this character "willed that none should perish?"

TrueThinker: One mistake, minor- a Jewish prophet was not necessarily expected to heal the sick, raise the dead, or cast out demons. They were primarily just messengers. But Jesus gave the apostles authority to do these things.

I think Jesus thought of himself as a prophet who was chosen to heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out demons. I don't think the carrying out of these deeds had anything at all to do with love. It had to do with what was expected of a prophet.

"Mark" devotes only three or four sentences out of his whole narrative to Jesus' statements about love of one's neighbor. To me, this indicates how little priority Jesus placed on love.

rodahi



[This message has been edited by rodahi (edited June 13, 2001).]

I created this thread so that Ish and other Christian apologists (or anyone else) could present evidence to support Ish's claim that "Jesus main message was one of love for one's neighbor which he demonstrated constantly."

Perhaps Ish has finally come to the realization that he has no evidence. Surely, if he had any, he would have presented it by now. So be it.

rodahi

This will be my first and final post on this lonely thread.

I did have evidence straight from the texts which you chose to ignore by starting this thread. Even in your final post on the other thread, you never fully understood the arguments hanging over your head. Where is the point in debating pseudo-scholarship ad nauseam?

If you want to spin this as a petty victory for yourself, then be my guest because I can't argue forever trying to make you see the light.

Ish

"Jesus Main Message: Was it Love?"

No, it was 'Only you can prevent forrest fires'

or was it Forrest Gump?

I guess different sects have different interpretations.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ish:
This will be my first and final post on this lonely thread.

It is only "lonely" because Christian apologists apparently have nothing substantive to offer.

Ish: I did have evidence straight from the texts which you chose to ignore by starting this thread.

Nope. Ish never presented more than a phrase from the NT and his own opinions.

Ish: Even in your final post on the other thread, you never fully understood the arguments hanging over your head.

Yes, I understood everything about the falseness of Ish's claim.

Ish: Where is the point in debating pseudo-scholarship ad nauseam?

Perhaps this question should be addressed to all those who have had to deal with Ish's "pseudo-scholarship ad nauseam."

Ish: If you want to spin this as a petty victory for yourself, then be my guest because I can't argue forever trying to make you see the light.

I see that Ish has again failed to offer anything substantive. It is a shame, especially since he made the initial claim: "Jesus' main message was one of love for one's neighbor which he demonstrated constantly."

(For those who care, I saw the light almost 30 years ago when I began to read the JC Bible. Once I read it and studied it, I knew it DID NOT say what Christians said it did.)

This thread was started to give Ish (and others) a fair opportunity to present evidence to support Ish's claim. The fact that Ish has nothing to offer speaks volumes.

One last thing, when Christian apologists make claims, about ANYTHING, do the research and investigate. Many times the claims are as false as Ish's.

rodahi

James Still

This is a cool topic rodahi. I think it's important to distinguish the historical Jesus from the post-Easter Christ of faith, although that's easier said than done. I think the Q gospel provides us with a hint as to who the historical Jesus was and what he taught. Burton Mack lists twelve "core sayings" from the Q gospel. Drumroll please:

1. Love your enemies (6:27)

2. If struck on one cheek, offer the other (6:29)

3. Give to everyone who begs (6:30)

4. Judge not and you won't be judged (6:37)

5. First remove the beam from your own eye (6:42)

6. Leave the dead to bury their dead (9:60)

7. Go out as lambs among wolves (10:3)

8. Carry no money, bag, or sandals (10:4)

9. Say, "God's rule has come near you" (10:9)

10. Ask and it shall be given to you (11:9)

11. Don't worry about living (12:22)

12. Make sure of God's rule over you (12:31)

So if the Q hypothesis is correct, then it seems as if the Q community understood Jesus' teachings to emphasize voluntary poverty, humbleness, total pacifism, and complete reliance on God rather than family or tradition. This is the Jesus I understand and to whom I can relate. That crazy stuff where Jesus says to drink his blood and claims he's the Logos seems rather strange coming from the mouth of a poor itinerant rabbi.

I consider Burton Mack to be an excellent scholar, but I disagree with the presumption that Jesus was humble or a pacifist. (So do many scholars.) There is just too much in the NT that goes the other way. Also, presuming the tradition that he was executed as a troublemaker is correct, it does not stand to reason that he could have been a humble teacher who went around spreading a message of love and "total pacifism."

Also, I am not interested in a Jesus that I can relate to; I am interested in who the man Jesus was, warts and all.

rodahi