jess

(Sorry, Apikorus, if you wanted this to die...)

On another thread, Apikorus wrote:
Is there?

I am under the impression that the legends, myths and stories of the gods have always been accepted as such--- legends, myths and stories. That Athena breaking through Zeus' forehead was metaphorical, not a literal event, and as such, is rooted in 'truth' but not in 'fact/history'. I am also under the impression that the believers in the religions did not believe in the 'letter' of the law as much as the power of the story behind it. They would not have survived as oral traditions with constant mutations and changes if the legends had been 'divinely' inspired (the inspiration of the muses aside ).

Thus, as these stories were never intended to be 'history' (as much as 'how so' stories, there has never been a reason to examine them for historical accuracy. A study into the possible historical/pre-historical events which 'gave birth' to the legends and/or into the societies which the legends sprang from would be interesting.

But, as Christianity is really the only religion which depends on the historical veracity of its 'legends'/books for it's strength, then it is reasonable that its stories be examined by the yardstick that it has presented.

Is it fair that Christianity be judged by a different standard than the other ancient religions? I feel it is, because it is claiming things the other religions did not. (historical accuracy and the salvation of your soul depending on it vs a good yarn with some 'greater' truth to it).

Comments?

ecco

Is it fair that Christianity be judged by a different standard than the other ancient religions?

Not at all. Christianity should be judged by the exact same standards. That is to say Myth is Myth, Legend is Legend. There is no difference between popping out of a forehead and popping out of a grave.

lpetrich

I think that jess is incorrect on several points; an insistence on the literal truth of sacred history can be found in abundance outside of Christianity, and not only in Christianity's Abrahamic cousins, Judaism and Islam. Some Hindus claim that the Mahabharata is literal history, when its Mahabharat War was probably as historical as the Trojan War.

And as to how the stories of the official religions of the Greco-Roman world were viewed, there were a variety of opinions among those who liked to write books. But the less-educated probably considered those myths to be literal history.

One common opinion was that popular forms of religion were useful in making people behave virtuously, even if such forms were false. Plato, Polybius, Strabo, and others had gone on record as supporting that view.

Another view was that those myths were allegorical, rather than literal history, and reflecting the workings of higher realms of reality; consider Plutarch and the Neoplatonists.

Some had more skeptical opinions, like those who considered the Gods to be exaggerated human heroes. In Euhemerism, as this view is called, Zeus could have been a king who had had an eye for the ladies.

Some considered the Gods to be personified natural phenomena, thus Zeus would be the sky -- who fertilized the Earth with his rain.

And some apparently thought the Gods to be pure fiction, like Xenophanes who pointed out that people always imagine the Gods in their likeness.

jess

lpetrich, interesting comments. You won't mind if I comment back, right?

Some Hindus do not hold the mainstream ideas. While there are some sects which seem to believe that the books are literal, most Hindus do not. Indeed, it is not required to be a Hindu and believe any of it, unlike the J-C-I religions.

Re: The Trojan War:

J.M. Roberts in History of the World does mention that there were a series of seiges on Troy circa 1200 BCE which were used as the basis for the legends which Homer used to base the Iliad and Odessey. (Fagan's Oxford Companion to Archaeology agrees)

I conceed this point. The less educated generally do believe the most foolish things (as the urban legends boards prove). However, I have not run across any scholarly reports that it was mandatory to believe in the 'texts' literally. I seems accepted that they were more of an artistic endeavor than a literal religious idea. While the uneducated may have believed that Athena broke out of Zeus' skull, it was not a requirement, but (possibly) a holdover from childhood. We cannot go back and find out what they actually thought and believed and why, although I would gladly volunteer... if I could speak classical Greek, Latin, Egyptian, etc.

Religion has always been good for that. One reason that Christianity was considered good for slaves and women (but not adult men). Although the concept of reward/punishment was not as strong in the Hellenistic religions--- their gods were far more like Job's than justice meters.

Your 'another', 'some' and 'some' points seem to agree with mine. If I am wrong, please clarify. Else I will go my merry way...

This I have always found odd. X. should have known about the gods who were not in man's image--- several of the older gods had no physical human qualities at all, and few, if any, emotional ones. Zeus and the Olympians and Cronus and the Titans were human in their qualitites--- although not always physically (Rhea for one was a snake when represented)--- but much of this was changed when a more patriarchal society started up in Greece (although I realize that a mere physical change (a human in a snake's body is still a human image) is not enough to make a god non-human).

However, Hestia stands out in my mind as an exception to the rule of god-mimics-human--- she had no physical form, and shared no emotional qualities with humans AFAIK. I have yet to find one. She was worshipped, and her departure was considered bad luck, but there is no record of her responding to worship or demanding it. She, for all intents and purposes, was (not embodied, as she did not have one) fire and regeneration and community. Why X. would say what he did, knowing of her important cult, is beyond me.

Thanks for your imput,

jess

Marduk

"And some apparently thought the Gods to be pure fiction, like Xenophanes who pointed out that people always imagine the Gods in their likeness."

And lets not forget those who think the Gods and supermen of old were Aliens!

Imagine a 9 foot tall being stepping out of a spaceship, that most certainly would have set the tounges a waggin' among those old time peoples.
They would have written stories about that for years.
Gen. 6 "and the Nephilim were on the Earth in those days, and afterword, and they were the mighty men, the men of renown"

[ August 29, 2001: Message edited by: marduck ]

Kosh

He he. Larry Niven had some fun with this
concept in his book "Ringworld". He has his
central character land his ship amongst
some primitive peoples and use the intercomm
system to address them, ala the Bill Cosby
"Noah" skit....

The chapter was even called "The God Gambit"
.....

And let's not forget the primitive cultures
of the South Pacific, who now make idols
whose shape is mysteriously like those
planes used by the U.S. during WWII....

lpetrich

jess:
Some Hindus do not hold the mainstream ideas. While there are some sects which seem to believe that the books are literal, most Hindus do not. Indeed, it is not required to be a Hindu and believe any of it, unlike the J-C-I religions.

LP:
I'm sure that you are correct about the more educated Hindus, but I would not be surprised if many of the less educated ones hold crude literalist views.

jess:
Re: The Trojan War: [some evidence of sieges of Troy back in 1200 BCE...]

LP:
That is certainly correct, though if it does not indicate the existence of the deities of Mt. Olympus. And essentially the same could be true of the Mahabharat War, though I don't know much about the Mahabharata.

[The famous Xenophanes quote about theological anthropomorphism...]
jess:
This I have always found odd. X. should have known about the gods who were not in man's image--- ...

LP:
You are quite correct about the existence of such counterexamples -- there are various non-anthropomorphic deities that have been worshipped, like the celestial bodies. However, theological anthropomorphism is very common, and Xenophanes is quite correct about many deities often having a suspicious resemblance to their worshippers.

Marduk

This theme pops up alot in sci-fi, 2001 A.C. Clarke, Stanislaw Lem, Star Trek TOS they meet Apollo, and one time McCoy says "Just once I'd like to beam down on a primative planet and say Behold! I am the Ark Angel Gabriel!. Picard on TNG shuttled an archaeologist around from planet to planet to prove that an ancient species had spread life around to a host of planets and that humans Vulcans Klingons Cardasians and Romulans were all related.

Klattu: "Gort, I'll bet you 50 bars of latinum that I can get that old man over there to cut off the end of his Penis!"

Gort: "No way!"

Klattu: "Way! just watch..."

Kosh

Favorite comic I saw years ago:

A bunch of green aliens sitting at a
bar in a space station, Earth can be
seen through the porthole. They're all
laughing hysterically.

The caption reads:

"And then I said 'get two of every animal,
and put them on the ark'!"

Marduk