In this thread, I intend to dissect the bible and leave it to waste. I invite anyone who beleives he can contribute to do so. My intention is to demonstrate two things:
1. That the so-called christians do not understand what the bible says.
2. That by and large, the bible is not what christians think it is: A word of God, divinely revealed
I will be firing questions to a well-balanced, open-minded, once-almost-an-atheist christian by the name of Andrew and you, my friends can watch with glee, or can contribute anytime.

Let the games begin.

Andrew
Please answer the questions as simply as you can, if you feel the need to elaborate, feel free. I know I have a lot to learn from you. Personally, I am willing to convert to a christian if you help me to make sense out of some simple verses of the bible (of course I know your purpose is not to convert)

Andrew isnt the only one who has to answer.

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

My questions are as follows
1. What is "the deep" as mentioned in Genesis 2?
2. What "light" did God create in Genesis 3?
Bear in mind that Genesis 1:14-19 says that God created the "...two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also." on the fourth day of creation.
3. Genesis 1:5 says "God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. What does "day" mean in Genesis 5 (first day) since the sun and the heavenly bodies were created on the fourth day?
4. Genesis 1:5 says "And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.""
What was this "firmanent"? What waters were being separated from the waters?

Four tiny questions. I would like to know how you interpret the passages in Genesis before I can share with you my interpretation.

The "deep" usually refers to the ocean or body of water. I think that is what it is speaking of here.

Actually verse 3 does not say God created light. Rather he calls the light he has already created to shine on the earth, since darkness enshrouds it. The Hebrew word bara, creation from "nothing", is used in the first verse when God creates the entire universe. Hashammayim we ha'erets is a specific cobination in the ancient Hebrew that refers to the entire universe.
Well as I said before the sun was created "In the beginning.."- the "heavens" are already in existence on the fourth day. Notice the command given; it is similar to the one given on day 1- "Let there be..." Verses 14-19 are actually not saying the sun, moon and stars were created on the fourth day. Rather they state their purpose. A different word is even used asa, to make. If the author is saying they were "created" on this day, he would have used bara, creation from "nothing", to establish it was brand new. Take a look at the verses:

Genesis 1
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.
16 God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth,
18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day.

Verse 18 echoes day 1. It's telling you that the heavenly bodies are what separated the light from the darkness on day 1. So what these verses are implying is that the heavenly bodies can now be fully seen for the first time on earth since there is a break in the clouds. "A break in the clouds?" you say. Yes. The command is for lights to be in the expanse of the "sky" or firmament of the "heaven" made on day 2, where they appear to be from an observer on the surface of the earth. I'm guessing it must have been extremely "cloudy" or something was preventing them from being fully seen.

The "firmament" is an expanse or what I call "the space between"(like the DMB song). I believe it is saying that at the time God is preparing the earth for life, the vapors that make up the clouds were directly above the waters-the oceans and seas. God commands them to separate so as to have the vapors high above the water beneath it. The clouds in the sky are made of water, which is why we get rainfall.

Well I hope I was thorough enough. I will be willing to give a more detailed explanation of Genesis 1 if you like.

Actually, when I almost deconverted last year, it'd probably be more accurate to describe me as an "almost-agnostic."

Alrighty, here I am. Unfortunately, I really don't know too much about Genesis or the OT--I specialize more in NT studies. So I can't promise that my answers here will be much more than Sunday-school-level. I've never studied the OT very deeply (although I'm about to begin reading A Guide to Interpreting the Literary Genres of the Old Testament by Sandy and Giese, so that might help me some in the future).

If you'd like to have a discussion with me that would be more thorough, I'd be more than happy to discuss some NT issues with you, but I leave that choice in your hands. For now, let me respond to the questions you've posed.

Since later in the same verse, water is mentioned, I would think it'd be that.

I honestly don't know from a scientific point of view (science is not my fortee, definitely). I've heard it argued that it was referring to God's spiritual light. Or perhaps some temporary light.

It's probably referring to the light of Genesis 1:3. (See what I mean so far?)

Here I can get into a bit more detail.

Strong's: firmament - 7549. raqiya', raw-kee'-ah; frm H7554; prop. an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:--firmament.

Remember the ancient Hebrews had no word or even concept of an infinite outer space as we (who are more technologically advanced) do. The idea of a "stretched" firmament really comes as close to describing an infinite coverage of space as one can get in ancient literature. This article explains things like this in more detail.

I wish I could be more thorough and convincing, but it seems you've picked a topic I know quite little about. Again, I'll state that I'd prefer to move our discussion to the NT, seeing as though if we stay here, it will get rather one-sided. Let me know if you'd like to do that. Thanks.

Andrew

Don't worry Andrew, I'll take care of jaliet's (French?) questions.

You mean, like a drop light? So he could see
what he was building as he created?

So jaliet, where's your interpretation?

I think it is worth noting at the outset that many Christians take the accounts of Creation to be poetical and allegorical. This view certainly has something to commend it when we realise that the animals are created in the same orders as their habitats are.

For those who believe the account is literal there are two different main approaches.

Approach one.
This is a heading saying "This is a creation account".

As we all know from modern Science before the universe was created the earth was "without form and void". The "darkness" on "the face of the deep" signifies that nothing is yet in extistence.
In this verse God is organising with his Spirit the metaphysical thing which is to become creation - the "waters".

This depicts the Big Bang. In this explosion there was a huge amount of light realised. Indeed light outweighed matter in the universe for millions of years.

Yes, on the fourth day the Sun begins to shine.

It means an age. It is a convenient way of breaking up the creation narrative into sequential events each which happened in sequential ages.

Plasma/energy/matter were the waters and they were separted into galaxies etc. The firmament is the "heavens". ie "space".


Approach 2.
The Stars, Sun, Earth were all created.

The earth's surface was all but molten and so the earth had no fixed shape. (Depending on the translation the words "without form and void" are rendered "chaotic and formless") The "face of the deep" refers to the surface of earth which was shrouded in darkness, as the earth was locked in a cloud of thick vapour to begin with.

At this point one of two things happened. Either the sun began to give off light, or the vapour cloud around the earth thinned to a point where the sun's light was visible from the earth.

On the fourth day the Hebrew uses the historic tense for made. This is best translated as "had already made". God is not here making the Sun, and Stars - he had already. Somehow they are now relevant. Presumably this indicates that the vapour cloud around earth dissipated far enough to actually see the sun, moon and star as opposed to mere light.

It either means a 24 hour day or an age of the universe or world.

This is the formation of the atmosphere. The firmament is the atmosphere or sky -as it is named by God in verse 8 (in some translations). The "waters" which are separating represent the vapour cloud around earth further dissipating - eventually into seas (see 1:9-10) and into clouds (the water above the sky).


I am not sure that either approach is without problems. Approach 1 was in fashion about 30 years ago, whereas approach 2 is the more used now.

Tercel: I think it is worth noting at the outset that many Christians take the accounts of Creation to be poetical and allegorical. This view certainly has something to commend it when we realise that the animals are created in the same orders as their habitats are.

LP: Same order? Their order of appearance is all wrong. You might want to check out Young's Literal Translation, http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?pas...on&showxref=on

T: Approach 1

T: "1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." This is a heading saying "This is a creation account".

LP: The most literal translation would be "In the beginning of God's creating the heavens and the earth"

T: "2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters."As we all know from modern Science before the universe was created the earth was "without form and void". The "darkness" on "the face of the deep" signifies that nothing is yet in extistence.
In this verse God is organising with his Spirit the metaphysical thing which is to become creation - the "waters".

LP: Seems to me a lot of after-the-fact rationalization. The Bible states that a dark Earth and a dark Heaven were in existence.

T: "3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light."This depicts the Big Bang. In this explosion there was a huge amount of light realised. Indeed light outweighed matter in the universe for millions of years.

LP: A cosmic fireball which existed 5 to 10 billion years before the Earth did. There are some other stories that do at least as well:

Cosmic-egg creation stories.

The Norse creation story of how the giant Ymir was dismembered to form the familiar Universe.

These stories have an essential element: a compact object which fragments to form the familiar Universe. Although they don't even come close to the stupendous magnitude of the Big Bang.

T: "2. What "light" did God create in Genesis 3?
Bear in mind that Genesis 1:14-19 says that God created the "...two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also." on the fourth day of creation."Yes, on the fourth day the Sun begins to shine.

LP: Creating light as if daylight could exist separate from the Sun seems to me an absurdity. And creating the stars as some kind of afterthought -- the stars may *look* insignificant, but they are Sunlike objects, some of them significantly older than the Sun itself.

T: "3. Genesis 1:5 says "God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. What does "day" mean in Genesis 5 (first day) since the sun and the heavenly bodies were created on the fourth day?"It means an age. It is a convenient way of breaking up the creation narrative into sequential events each which happened in sequential ages.

LP: Seems very contrived.

"4. Genesis 1:5 says "And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.""
What was this "firmanent"? What waters were being separated from the waters?"Plasma/energy/matter were the waters and they were separted into galaxies etc. The firmament is the "heavens". ie "space".

LP: The "firmament" was a bowl-shaped object that had water above it; Babylonian cosmology has a similar -- and more clearly-stated -- view.

T: Approach 2

T: "1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."The Stars, Sun, Earth were all created.

LP: Totally scrambling the text.

T: "2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters."The earth's surface was all but molten and so the earth had no fixed shape. (Depending on the translation the words "without form and void" are rendered "chaotic and formless") The "face of the deep" refers to the surface of earth which was shrouded in darkness, as the earth was locked in a cloud of thick vapour to begin with.

LP: Even if the Earth had once been molten, it would have had a well-defined, approximately-spherical shape. It is too big to hold an asteroidal lumpy-potato shape.

T: "3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light."At this point one of two things happened. Either the sun began to give off light, or the vapour cloud around the earth thinned to a point where the sun's light was visible from the earth.

LP: Light without a source is an absurdity.

T: "2. What "light" did God create in Genesis 3?
Bear in mind that Genesis 1:14-19 says that God created the "...two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also." on the fourth day of creation."On the fourth day the Hebrew uses the historic tense for made. This is best translated as "had already made". God is not here making the Sun, and Stars - he had already. Somehow they are now relevant. Presumably this indicates that the vapour cloud around earth dissipated far enough to actually see the sun, moon and star as opposed to mere light.

LP: Hebrew has only two basic verb tenses: a present and a past. And consulting that YLT reveals no change in the verb tense for this passage.

T: "3. Genesis 1:5 says "God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. What does "day" mean in Genesis 5 (first day) since the sun and the heavenly bodies were created on the fourth day?"It either means a 24 hour day or an age of the universe or world.

LP: Again, the absurdity of sourceless lights ought to be evident.

T: "4. Genesis 1:5 says "And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.""
What was this "firmanent"? What waters were being separated from the waters?"This is the formation of the atmosphere. The firmament is the atmosphere or sky -as it is named by God in verse 8 (in some translations). The "waters" which are separating represent the vapour cloud around earth further dissipating - eventually into seas (see 1:9-10) and into clouds (the water above the sky).

LP: The Earth's atmosphere is NOT a body of continuous liquid water, despite it sometimes having clouds in it.

LP: I suggest reading also:

Matthew 4:8
Revelation 7:1

Consider what they imply about the shape of the Earth.

Really? The NIV, NASB, NKJV, DARBY all render Genesis 1:1 like this.

Perhaps. But how is this relevant? The light has a source - the sun.

I don't know Hebrew so I can't argue. I'm only quoting what I've read.

Again the irrelevance of this your comment ought to be evident.

I don't recall saying or implying it was.

Oh, please!

Truethinker,
I am glad you have attempted to answer my questions.
Your answers need some elaboration so let me ask for some clarifications:

You say ""deep" usually refers to the ocean or body of water"
What is this body of water? is it the earth? or is it an ocean or is it space? Where was it?
Who created "the deep"? why is it called "the deep" Because Seas in Gen 1:10 are called seas -

not "the deep". Did the author merely decide to use the word "the deep" for literary beauty?

Gen 1:9 says "And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one

place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so" (I am using KJV)

This means, that God created the seas and oceans etc on the third day.
Do you agree that God created the seas and oceans etc on the third day of creation? (this needs

to be clear from your side - because I get the impression that you are implying that by Gen 1:1

"everything" was already in place)
And why do you include the word "usually" - are you unsure?


You Say [i]Actually verse 3 does not say God created light. Rather he calls the light he has

already created to shine on the earth, since darkness enshrouds it. [i]

If he had already created "the light" where was it? in his pockets ?(sorry, but I am very

serious) What kind of light was it spiritual light, or light as in photons?

Notice the command given; it is similar to the one given on day 1- "Let there be..." Verses

14-19 are actually not saying the sun, moon and stars were created on the fourth day. Rather they

state their purpose. A different word is even used asa, to make. If the author is saying they

were "created" on this day, he would have used bara, creation from "nothing", to establish it was

brand new

So, when did God create the "sun, moon and stars..."?
Why does the author(s) keep referring to first day, second day, third day, fourth day...
Whats the purpose of all this if its not meant to give an idea of chronology?

What does "Let there be lights" achieve if the lights are already there? Are you telling us that

God was engaging in meaningless palaver? Was he wasting his breath?


the ancient Hebrews had no word or even concept of an infinite outer space as we (who are more

technologically advanced) do
I agree with this. But I get the picture that there is one mass originally and God is creating a

firmanent to divide it into two and keep the parts separate. If this interpretation is correct,

then, what was it that the firmanent divided? The deep?

Tercel
You are an amazing guy. You said
As we all know from modern Science before the universe was created the earth was "without form

and void". The "darkness" on "the face of the deep" signifies that nothing is yet in extistence.
In this verse God is organising with his Spirit the metaphysical thing which is to become

creation - the "waters".

First, modern science does not say the universe was created.
Two, Modern science does not say the earth was without form and void - before the universe was

created. Which came first, the earth or the universe?

you say ...This depicts the Big Bang. In this explosion there was a huge amount of light

realised. Indeed light outweighed matter in the universe for millions of years.
Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Basic science. What energy was used to create this

light?

Since you have not answered the question, let me ask again:

2. What "light" did God create in Genesis 3?
Bear in mind that Genesis 1:14-19 says that God created the "...two great lights, the greater

light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also." on the

fourth day of creation.

What light? if the sun, by your own admission, began to shine on the fourth day?
What was the sun doing before the fourth day? unshining?

you say [day] means an age. It is a convenient way of breaking up the creation narrative into

sequential events each which happened in sequential ages.
Read my response to Truethinkers reply and restate your point. I can agree with you that it mens

an age, if it does, when did God create "the deep", and what is "the deep"?

you say The earth's surface was all but molten and so the earth had no fixed shape. (Depending

on the translation the words "without form and void" are rendered "chaotic and formless") The

"face of the deep" refers to the surface of earth which was shrouded in darkness, as the earth

was locked in a cloud of thick vapour to begin with.

So, when did God create the earth? Why did he leave it "all but molten and so the earth had no

fixed shape"? Did he also look at it and saw that it was good as he was leaving it formless - or

there was no light for him to see the formless earth? Clarify this

As I read the rest of your post, I get the impression that you are not serious and you dont give

a damn either way (which is fine with me). Your responses like It either means a 24 hour day or an age of the universe or world. leave me speechless.
Because you do not make a stand, I can not ask you what you mean because you do not "mean" it - others do. Your words are Approach 2...
Who cares how many approaches there are? What is your approach?

Thats all I care to know. Your approach - which I intend to diseect. Are you protecting it from me - or you have no approach?

And oh, Tercel Are you a christian? Coz if you are, you should be very vocal in giving me your approach. Dont sit on the fence. If you want to, explain why. If you dont want to, dont give answers that are not yours.

Truethinker. I am waiting

And by the way, my mailbox got flooded with some silly message about "Notification: reply to your BB topic" who the hell is doing that? Isn't one message enough? Tercel is it you? Its a form of harrasment and I will get restraining orders if you dont stop.