Vinnie

I'd appreciate it if you'd fill this out if you have some time. I want to understand non-Christian positions a little better.

1. To you, what is the Christian faith? Sum it up, no more than 50 words please.

2. What do you feel is the strongest evidence that discredits the veracity of the Christian faith?

3. What do you dislike the most about Christianity?

4. What do you like best about Christianity?

5. List 5 qualities you like about Christianity. Please keep them brief.

6. List 5 qualities you dislike about Christianity. Please keep them brief.

7. What would you do if you found out God really existed and that He sent His Son Jesus to die for your sins? You also find out that you need to surrender your life and will to Him and ask him to forgive you of your sins. Would you?

8. Are Christianity and the Bible mutually exclusive? Explain. List 5 examples if you can. Be brief.

9. What are your three favorite Biblical contradictions?

10. Is the Bible a good source of moral values? Why or why not?

11. List 6 "good" morals taught in the Bible. (Please don't exceed 6)

12. List 6 "bad" morals taught in the Bible. (Please don't exceed 6)

13. List any character flaws you can think of concerning Jesus as presented in the Gospels. If you are a Christ-Myther you can still answer this one.

14. How much of the Bible have you read?

15. Positive experiences with believers? List a few if you like.

16. Negative experience with believers? List a few if you like.

17. How would you classify yourself? Solipsist, atheist (strong, weak), agnostic etc? Please provide a brief description.

18. What is the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear the word Apologetics?

19. Can Christians be open-minded?

20. Was Christ a historical figure? Why or why not?

21. If you said he was a historical figure then who do you think he really was before the Biblical authors took hold of him? Was he a teacher? Did he claim to be God? Did he die? Be brief.

22. Does a contradiction in the Bible discredit the entire thing? Does it discredit the Christian faith? Why or why not. Be brief.

23. Is abortion okay? Why or why not. Be brief.

24. A concluding postscript. Here you can go on a 100 word rant on any subject you want pertaining to Christianity. This is optional.

Thanks a lot.

3DChizl

You will get more information by either searching the old posts for the subjects you are asking about or posting new separate topics in the appropriate forums.
...You might try searching the posts at Skeptics Annotated Bible too.

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: 3DChizl ]

Megatron

I'm only biting on this because I've got some time on my hands... read answers after each question.

b@rtleby

It’s about time christians did some descent market research, their brand really isn’t as strong as it used to be. What do I get for filling it in? Salvation?
Anyway...
1. To you, what is the Christian faith? Sum it up, no more than 50 words please.
As many christians can’t decide on this I’ll try and be as basic as I can - belief that Jesus Christ is the son of God (and also God) who died on the cross for our sins. Also that god created everything and we will be sent to heaven or hell when we die
2. What do you feel is the strongest evidence that discredits the veracity of the Christian faith?
Other religions, lack of evidence
3. What do you dislike the most about Christianity?
Intolerance and bigotry.
4. What do you like best about Christianity?
St Francis
5. List 5 qualities you like about Christianity. Please keep them brief.
St. Francis, Monty Python’s Life of Brian, the imagery of the Catholic church, the work of Michelangelo, 1 corninthians 13
6. List 5 qualities you dislike about Christianity. Please keep them brief.
The Bible, the old testament, most of the epistles (except 1 Cor 13), bigotry, intolerance.
7. What would you do if you found out God really existed and that He sent His Son Jesus to die for your sins? You also find out that you need to surrender your life and will to Him and ask him to forgive you of your sins. Would you?
Probably not, because the whole idea seems cruel and bloodthirsty and not really worthy of my worship. This is even truer if I find out that the Bible is inerrant and God really did commit all those massacres in the OT.
8. Are Christianity and the Bible mutually exclusive? Explain. List 5 examples if you can. Be brief.
It depends on your interpretation of each. But yes, if as seems to happen Christians worship the Bible rather than God.
9. What are your three favorite Biblical contradictions?
I’m not sure if I really have ‘favourites’ but... No one is good but God, Joseph of Arimathea, and Baranabas, no one has seen God except for lot’s of people in the OT, and Jesus being God though he’s clearly not "my god, my god, why have you forsaken me" was just a cunning bluff...
10. Is the Bible a good source of moral values? Why or why not?
No because the old testament and much of the new are sexist racist homophobic and barbaric and anyway the whole thing is based on an appeal to a non existent authority
11. List 6 "good" morals taught in the Bible. (Please don't exceed 6)
do unto others, do not kill (despite the hypocrisy)...
12. List 6 "bad" morals taught in the Bible. (Please don't exceed 6)
racism, homophobia, intolerance, bigotry, hypocrisy, being mean to fig trees
13. List any character flaws you can think of concerning Jesus as presented in the Gospels. If you are a Christ-Myther you can still answer this one.
Believing he was the son of god whilst at the same time being god. over reliance on parables...
14. How much of the Bible have you read?
too much
15. Positive experiences with believers? List a few if you like.
I’ve had sex with a couple which was fun...
16. Negative experience with believers? List a few if you like.
Being pestered...
17. How would you classify yourself? Solipsist, atheist (strong, weak), agnostic etc? Please provide a brief description.
Atheistic in regards to specific gods, agnostic otherwise.
18. What is the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear the word Apologetics?
Apologising...
19. Can Christians be open-minded?
Theoretically...
20. Was Christ a historical figure? Why or why not?
Yes, because potential religious leaders are ten a penny (especially in those days) so I can’t see why anyone would bother to make one up.
21. If you said he was a historical figure then who do you think he really was before the Biblical authors took hold of him? Was he a teacher? Did he claim to be God? Did he die? Be brief.
Teacher. Didn’t claim to be God.
22. Does a contradiction in the Bible discredit the entire thing? Does it discredit the Christian faith?
Why or why not. Be brief.
It discredit’s the Bible in the sense that it is then obviously not God’s word and inerrant and therefore resumes it’s rightful place as collection of primitive myths...
23. Is abortion okay? Why or why not. Be brief.
Yes. Freedom of choice.
24. A concluding postscript. Here you can go on a 100 word rant on any subject you want pertaining to Christianity. This is optional.
Can I have my salvation now please?

bb

babelfish

I'm so proud of myself! I just figured out what "ilgwamh" stands for!

I know I'm slow - it took me months to figure out ROTFLMAO and IMHO.

3DChizl

That's gotta be "I love god with all my heart" right?
So god-heart- why all the questions? You know you will never understand.

beachbum

Dear friends in atheism

Now is our turn. ILQWAMH has wnadered into our camp seeking truth and knowledge. Could it be that a small still voice of reason is getting to him? Do you think that maybe Vinnie (I believe that is his real name) is looking for answers? Is he looking to convert or would that be de-convert? Reel him in. Lets all gather round and grab him and take him to Hell with us.

kctan

Well it could be "I love guilt with all my heart" if he/she is xian therefore a bloody sinner & so full of guilt.

It could also stand for "I love gays with all my heart" which I don't have to explain.

It might also stand for "I love guys/gals with all my heart".

It even could be "I love guitars with all my heart" for all we know.

Remotely it might even be "I love galloping with all my horses".

pug846

You would probably get more responses if you weren't asking the poster to write a small book in order to answer your questions.

ohwilleke

Originally posted by ilgwamh:
<STRONG>I'd appreciate it if you'd fill this out if you have some time. I want to understand non-Christian positions a little better.

1. To you, what is the Christian faith? Sum it up, no more than 50 words please. </STRONG>

The Christian faith is a religious movement, begun a couple of thousand years ago (give or take a century) that gives a central role to a figure known as "Jesus Christ". For the most part it has been practices through one or more organized religious groups. Most look to "the Bible" as an important religious text.

<STRONG> 2. What do you feel is the strongest evidence that discredits the veracity of the Christian faith? </STRONG>

The contradictions of the Bible with itself and scientific fact, and the great religious diversity found in the world.

<STRONG> 3. What do you dislike the most about Christianity? </STRONG>

The Evagelism and hate towards others (such as gays) espoused in conservative Christianity.

<STRONG> 4. What do you like best about Christianity? </STRONG> The compassion and beauty fostered by the more liberal parts of it.

<STRONG> 5. List 5 qualities you like about Christianity. Please keep them brief. </STRONG>

1. Christianity has a long tradition of supporting art, music and architecture.
2. Christianity has a long tradition of helping the poor, imprisoned and weak.
3. Christian congregations provide a means of caring for the emotional needs of its members in the context of a community and meditation, rather than in the medical context of psychotherapy.
4. Parts of Christianity promote positive ethical values . . . like tolerance, compassion, pacifism and the like.
5. Christianity helped preserve literate tradition through its monastic movement after the fall of the Roman empire.

<STRONG> 6. List 5 qualities you dislike about Christianity. Please keep them brief. </STRONG>

1. Christianity encourages belief in things which aren't true; and can be and is used to try to prevent children from learning the truth in the areas of science, anthropology and other pursuits.
2. Christianity can be and is used to promote hate and violence against non-Christians and others.
3. Christianity can be and is used to oppress women.
4. Christianity can be and is used to establish narrow-minded, anti-intellectual, inhumane, anti-pleasure, anti-sex, moral codes.
5. Christianity encourages people to look to moral causes where no exist, instead of real physical causes of events.

<STRONG> 7. What would you do if you found out God really existed and that He sent His Son Jesus to die for your sins? You also find out that you need to surrender your life and will to Him and ask him to forgive you of your sins. Would you? </STRONG>

Assuming that you are talking about the Biblical God, no. I would work against that God because the God described in the Bible is not a Good and loving God and I would not want to serve such a wrathful, injust power.

<STRONG> 8. Are Christianity and the Bible mutually exclusive? Explain. List 5 examples if you can. Be brief. </STRONG>

No. The Bible is a contradictory source which supports many different Christian interpretations of it simulateously.

It calls for you to love your neighbor, yet also at time has God command the people to slaughter their neighbors and stone homosexuals.

It has a Satan who is a servant of God in some parts of the Bible, and a rebel against God in Revelations.

The Bible both states that it is important that the word of God be spread to as many as possible, and yet says that the chosen are few and predetermined.

The Bible says Jesus is coming again soon, and yet also says that those who believe without seeing are great in faith.

<STRONG> 9. What are your three favorite Biblical contradictions? </STRONG>

First, Jesus fulfills the prophecy of coming from the line of David through Joseph, the husband of Mary his mother, despite the fact that he is allegedly an immaculate conception.

Second, parts of the Bible refer to God as the one and only God, yet other parts of the Bible in the OT acknowledge the existence of other Gods.

Third, parts of the Bible refer to God as completely good, yet others see God commanding the slaughter of innocents.

<STRONG> 10. Is the Bible a good source of moral values? Why or why not? </STRONG>

The Bible offers both positive examples of moral values (especially in the Gospels themselves), and negative examples of moral values (especially in the OT and from Paul). The Bible is not a clear moral guidebook, and many of its stories have no moral message at all.

<STRONG> 11. List 6 "good" morals taught in the Bible. (Please don't exceed 6) </STRONG>

Love thy neighbor.

A little charity from a poor person can be a greater sign of virtue than a larger gift from a rich person.

Turn the other cheek.

Solve your own problems when you can rather than judging others inadequacies.

Use your talents, don't hide them.

Material things are not the most important things in life.

<STRONG> 12. List 6 "bad" morals taught in the Bible. (Please don't exceed 6) </STRONG>

1. Hate gays.

2. Women should be servants and treated like property.

3. Slaughtering members of enemy tribes is O.K.

4. Being happy is bad (generally inference from lots of little things).

5. Put God's needs about the needs of people.

6. Pay your taxes (joke).

<STRONG> 13. List any character flaws you can think of concerning Jesus as presented in the Gospels. If you are a Christ-Myther you can still answer this one. </STRONG>

Controlling and possessive. Wants everyone to give everything else up.

The guy has a death wish.

Preaches peace but loses his temper in the Temple at the merchants.

Has standards no human could keep up.

Foot fetish (joke)

<STRONG> 14. How much of the Bible have you read? </STRONG>

Almost cover to cover (O.K., I may have skimmed Numbers and a few other bits for the high points).

<STRONG> 15. Positive experiences with believers? List a few if you like. </STRONG>

Yes. Some believers have great presence of mind living centered lives (esp. Quakers). Some believers really care for other people and understand the complexity of life and try to do good.

<STRONG> 16. Negative experience with believers? List a few if you like. </STRONG>

Yes. Raving, bible quoting theist looneys. Demagouges like teleevanglists. Annoying people who try to convert you. Annoying people who try to write you out of citizenship.

<STRONG> 17. How would you classify yourself? Solipsist, atheist (strong, weak), agnostic etc? Please provide a brief description. </STRONG>

Srong atheist and secular humanist. Not a pantheist. Someone who also believes that reason is insufficient for a full and fulfilling life, although reason should also not be contradicted by emotion. Leaning towards the ethical system actually espoused by Epicurius.

<STRONG> 18. What is the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear the word Apologetics? </STRONG>

Bede.

<STRONG> 19. Can Christians be open-minded? </STRONG>

Yes, but not many are.

<STRONG> 20. Was Christ a historical figure? Why or why not? </STRONG>

Yes, but, Christ did not perform miracles, and much of the Christ story is a myth. Moreover, Christianity did not become a significant force until long after Christ died and owes its role on the world scene as much to Roman emperors like Constantine, and the early communal monks, as it does to the original disciples.

<STRONG> 21. If you said he was a historical figure then who do you think he really was before the Biblical authors took hold of him? Was he a teacher? Did he claim to be God? Did he die? Be brief. </STRONG>

A wandering teacher who was a bit of a con man. The Evagelicals are probably closer to the true Jesus, than the Renaissance artists. He probably claimed, not to be God, but to be as divine as any holy person. He died. He did not rise again. He was not an immaculate conception.

<STRONG> 22. Does a contradiction in the Bible discredit the entire thing? Does it discredit the Christian faith? Why or why not. Be brief. </STRONG>

Any contradiction discredits Biblical inerrancy and hence much of conservative Christianity. Some contradictions (with reality) discredit things which are important to even liberal Christian faith -- such as the notions of Christ as a miracle worker. The frequency of contradictions, undermines the notion of relying solely on scripture for guidance in spiritual matters and takes it off its pedestle to be compared on an equal basis with other texts and ideas.

The diluted view of the Bible that makes contradictions unimportant leads to a Sprongian Christianity, which, while intellectually defensible, is scarcely theistic Christianity anymore and has tradition more than moral force to support it.

<STRONG> 23. Is abortion okay? Why or why not. Be brief. </STRONG>

No. Abortion is an undesirable thing. But, it is not so undesirable that it should be legally banned. A fetus is not a certain human life. Miscarriage and stillbirth is, even in the age of modern science, something that affects one in three pregnancies. But, as the certainty of future life becomes greater, it is less just to end it. And, since adoption is available, the economic sacrifices involved to the mother are not as great as they seem. Certainly, the life and health of the mother is a reasonable ground for abortion. But, that is really a smoke screen issue. Very few of the million or so abortions each year are secured for this reason. Most abortions are due to unplanned pregnancies when the mother isn't ready to handle being a parent (often again). This is not necessarily wrong, but the moral implication is far more than that of contraception or of simply asking without any weighting to a person's current condition, do I or do I not want a child.

<STRONG> 24. A concluding postscript. Here you can go on a 100 word rant on any subject you want pertaining to Christianity. This is optional. </STRONG>

Liberal Christianity is a fairly harmless thing, even though I don't believe in it after years of trying to be a hypocritical Christian. But, conservative Christianity is quite dangerous, and liberal Christianity also by its silence supports the notion of the nation as more Christian than it is.

Secular society has not evolved institutions to replace what Christianity offers it members (as an atheist I must believe that it offers some secular benefit or it would have died long ago). When secular society evolves such institutions, it will be far easier for people who aren't theologically inclined to live secular lives and Christianity will take a big hit (I doubt it will ever vanish entirely).

<STRONG> Thanks a lot.</STRONG>

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]