sighhswolf

In our world today, because of the "political
correctness" we have adopted as a society, we have a tendancy to feel empathy for "God fearing" people the world over.


The trials and tribulations of the Jewish people are played to Americans over and over.

For the most part, christians think that the "Torah"/ Old Testament, is the supreme book of Judaism.

Christianity believes the Bible or more specifically the old testament contains the codes for life, and the laws of God, for Christians and Jews alike and have incorperated it into the Faith, along with the New Covenant. ( Jews do not believe in a new covenant and retain the old ways and traditions handed down from father to son for many centuries and require the adherence to the Rabbinic oral laws).

But does the old testament really contain the actual Hebrew legacy?
Is the old testament the ultimate Jewish manual and history?

The old testament certainly contains the ancient history of the hebrew nation and it does offer the laws of God as given to Moses.

It is plain though to anyone who takes the time to investigate that the Old Testament is for Gentiles, not for Jews.

Orthodox and Hasidic Jews the world over live by the "Talmud".

The Talmud commentary on the Bible is the supreme law and not the Bible itself.

One of the major points that comes through loud and clear in the NT ( that no good Jew acknowledges as accurate)is the riff between
Jesus and the Pharisees.
This riff was due to the idea that Jesus thought that the Pharisees taught the law of the Rabbis, not the law of God.

In acts 15;19-21, The Noahide Covenant is presented;
"Therefore my judgement is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchasity and from what is strangled and from blood........"

The seven Noahide Commandments make it clear that the ONLY way to God is through the Rabbis.
By the observance of these 7 laws, a gentile may fulfill the purpose of his creation and receive a share of the "World to Come".

And where are these 7 laws?
They were part of the oral traditions of the Rabbis, and can be found in the Talmud and the teachings of the rabbinic oral tradition
only.

Jesus stood in opposition to the concept that
is espoused by the Rabbis, that the only way to understand the writings of the Torah was through the study of the Talmud.

Why do I think that the Talmud and the 7 laws
of the Noahide is important?
Because they contain the actual rabbinic views and teachings pertaining to the relationship of the Jews with the gentiles, something that is not discussed in Christianity very often today.

I would like to present a few ideas that are taken from the Talmud, because they indicate
that as Christians there is a tendancy to
be bigoted with regard to other faiths, and this bigotry is not just limited to Christians, but is part of every religious faith.

And if the Bible is the inerrent word of God,
so to should be the faith that founded and recorded the presence of the one true God, that Christianity has adopted.

" Tob Shebe Goyyim Harog".

A saying from Rabbi Simon be Yohai.
Minor Tractates Soferim 15 rule 10
from the original Hebrew of the Babylonian Talmud as quoted by the 1907 Jewish Encyclopedia.
Translation= (disputed) "Even the best of Gentiles should be KILLED".

Rabbi Yaacon Perrin " One million arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail".
NY Daily News Feb. 28 1994.

As a non-theist reading the Bible, I find that derogatory comments about gentiles are for the most part glossed over.

But, the Talmud specifically defines all those who are not Jews as "non-human"
animals.

We can debate the validity of the Bible until
words fail us, but the Talmud is the real document we should be reading.
The Talmud contains the teachings of the Rabbis and the real explanation of the
Old Testament, the very same old testament
that was adopted by the christian faith.

I wonder if the worlds Christian population
would look at God in the same way if they had the Talmud to read instead of the Christian version of the old testament?

Menahoth 43-44a- A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day.
"Thank you God for not making me a gentile,
a woman, or a slave".

Does this sound like an idea that Christians should be basing their worship of the Hebrew God on? Is this a part of the old testament?

The Talmud has many instructions for the Jewish faithful that governs their interaction with Christians/gentiles.

The books also explain how gentiles should be perceived by Jews.

Sanhedrin 57a-
" When A Jew murders a gentile (cuthean) there will be no death penality ".

Baba Kamma 113a-
" Jews may use lies (subterfuges) to circumvent a gentile".

Yebamoth 98a-
" ALL gentile children are ANIMALS".

Abodah Zarah 36b-
" Gentile girls are in a state of "NIDDAH"
from birth". Niddah= FILTH

I am not antisemitic, nor am I christian, but I find these passages to be degrading, and bigoted.

Christians should read the Talmud to find the true nature of the God of Israel.
The Bible, the Old Testament, the Torah have been glossed over and do not present a true picture of the God that they are so willing to accept.

The entire history of organized religion
has been a statement to the discriminatory practices, ethnic cleansing, and bigotry of its perveyors.

Who are the worst offenders?
The orthodox Jews and the Talmud?
The terrorists of the Islamic faith?
The Catholic inquisitors?
Why cant Christians see the Bible for what it truly is?

When will we as humans be free of this hatred
and mythology and superstition?

aikido7

A very interesting and enlightening post. Would the bizzare instructions in the Talmud be comparable to the beliefs of Falwell, Robertson, Fred Phelps, James Kennedy who--in their zeal to speak for the Bible and Jesus--have left both behind enshirned in dogma and ritual?

It seems that in both Christianity and Judaism, you have the underlying bedrock of both traditions and then the "inerrant" opinions which claim to mediate the sacred scriptures and texts for the lowly and faithful. Is this an accurate take on the matter? I would love to hear from skeptics and atheists, Christains and Jews, fundamentalists and progressives on this. I am probably off base and invite comment and correction....

Ish

Sighhswolf, I believe you have some facts confused.

The Talmud did not exist in Jesus' time and came about hundreds of years later. The Talmud, generally, is an explanation and expansion of the Mishnah.

The Mishnah was the "Oral Law" supposedly explaining the Torah. Even it was only put to pen and paper around 200 A.D.

However, this "Oral Law" that became the Mishnah was more than likely what existed during Jesus time in some form (not necessarily exactly as the Mishnah has it).

Regardless, it was this "Oral Law" that Jesus spoke out against many times in his teachings. Men were trying to interpret God's Law for themselves and were making a mockery of it.

If you read the Mishnah, you will see rule upon difficult rule formed from the Laws of the Torah. These many "rules of men" were what Jesus spoke against and what were not necessarily followed by all Jews of the time, mostly the Religious elite.

Ish

[ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: Ish ]

Vorkosigan

Sighswolf,

I don't know where you got this stuff, but it looks like anti-semitic propaganda. Here is a rebuttal that makes some sense out of those passages.
http://www.jewish.com/askarabbi/askarabbi/askr2316.htm

Michael

offa

sighhswolf;
98a-" ALL gentile children are ANIMALS".


That is the message I got, especially while reading
Jubilees. Your title about "blinders is quite
accurate. The fundie discussion about Noah's ark
is a prime example. Just because a person claims to
be an atheist does not exclude that person from being
a "fundie". The Animals were gentiles. The Ark, in
reality was not a boat. It was a covenant. Of course
the theme was stolen from Gilgamesh but within the
fable is a true history. It one would care to be
studious about Noah they would discover that Shem was
his oldest son because Ham and Japheth were his wife's
children from a previous marriage. She was his wife
because she was "taken" from her husband and this
husband was also a Hebrew. The law is, "Thou shalt not
kill your brother" and it is not "Thou shalt not kill
a Gentile". Noah's nakedness was Ham screwing one of
Noah's wives. (I am beginning to believe also that
David and Jonathan were a couple of queers because
of a mothers nakedness being mentioned. BTW, I am
a member of the ACLU and I defend the rights of gays)
I also believe that when a Hebrew had a child by a
gentile girl that child became an animal. If it was
a girl she became a member of the harem and if it
was a boy he was severely circumcised (his pecker-head
removed, thrown in the river). When a heathen joined
the faith he was circumcised without knowing the
consequences (sucker).



Abodah Zarah 36b-" Gentile girls are in a state of
"NIDDAH"from birth".

Yes, she is classified as an Animal. She became a
plaything and her children became slaves with the
sons becoming eunuchs. Now, can we discover eunuchs
in the bible? Is that a primitive practice or what?
What justified the practice of making eunuchs. You
can probably find an oath somewhere that they (the
Hebrews) never castrated humans so that they were
exonerated. Well, if you were cut-off I am quite
sure you would be celibate.

Another thing, somewhere in the books of Samuel it
is mentioned that David won Saul's favor by
producing 600 heads ... go figure.

I do not care when this book was written. If you take
your blinders off an underlying message becomes
clear while reading Scripture. And you theists that
actually believe in the puka called the holy spirit
or of the puka Christ after the crucifixion ... get a life,
or better yet, get a real job because you are obviously
in a fantasy land. (BTW, I will vigorously defend you
rights to believe what you want to believe)


thanks,
off

sighhswolf

Thanks Michael,
I realize more and more every
every day how much each of the faiths hate each other. Christians badmouthing Jews, Islam hates christianity, protestants hate catholics, my God is better than yours...
na na na nana na............
You know, I really dont care
if the things in the last post are true or not. The accusations are made.
Religious people are always quick to tell the non-theists how terrible they are for not believing. How we are morally void, how we are arrogant, and prideful and how our lives have no meaning or direction without
divine guidence.
Yet, I see information like my last post everywhere. There are a multitude of web sites telling Jews how to handle christian
missionaries, and giving one misquote/mistranslation after another and what these sites are in reality are Hate sites.
Even if every thing in the last post is
pure propaganda, the simple fact is, that information is out there.
There are Christian sites doing the very same thing, bashing Jews because they
dont believe in the messiahship of Jesus.
There are many sites that are designed by Christians, to bash catholicism and darn near everyone hates Mormons.
When I read all this crap, I am continually amazed that Theists can have such a condesending attitude about non-theists, while spouting bigotry and hate,
in every direction.
So many christians will extend a hand to shake, while they are mentally Damning you.
The content of these sites and the validity of the information found there is not the real issue, the actual issue is that the God these people worship, has passed to them the same discriminatory, ethnic cleansing attitude that is so obvious in the Bible.
These children of God not only fight with different faiths, they fight among themselves and cant agree on the doctrines
they have established.
This soapbox is getting a little worn but, I fail to see how these people can consider themselves any better than non-theists, morally or ethically.
Granted, there are many good people
who are believers, and maybe I should give them the benefit of the doubt, but most of these hate sites are designed and implemented by the various clery.
And you can be sure that the sheep for the most part will follow the leader.

Ish

sighhswolf, I think what you have actually discovered is "human nature". Atheists right here on this website are badmouthing Christians, Jews, other religions, and even other Atheists and saying that they are better and more intelligent than the other side. Perhaps a quick glance in the mirror is due? It's impossible to hold a stong belief and not think the other side is wrong. As a matter of fact, you seem to be telling Jews, Christians, etc. that they are wrong...

This is a sad statement in my opinion. I think we all should correct misinformation whenever we see it whether it possibly reflects badly on our situation or not. I have called Christians before on bad historical information. In order for anyone to make an informed decision, correct data must be presented, though it may at times seemed tinged with the presuppositions of either side.

Please think about this and look at how people on this website respond to Christians at times... Again, I believe that what you're upset about is "human nature" and not Christians.

And how many times have I heard that I am simply blind and following the herd, lacking in intelligence? However unfortunate, these things you mention are simply "Human nature"...

There are an awful lot of atheistic websites that misquote and mistranslate as well... Instead of believing their information, check it out. Attempt to correct them nicely (some may not listen - either theist or non-theist). If they don't listen, then present correct and accurate information of your own by finding the best sources (which is not necessarily internet information).

While it may seem this way to you, I doubt very seriously this is what they are doing. If they are, then I would questions their sincerity of belief. Some Christians want to present what they feel is the "good news" of Jesus Christ, but some don't necessarily do it in the best ways. They're human too... However, most that I know are sincere and would like for others to believe in Jesus simply because they believe it is beneficial to the person receiving the message. Most I know want to help, not hurt. But there are exceptions, as there are in the non-theist camp...

Non-theists don't exactly seem to have it all figured out either, IMHO...

I think this is a misunderstanding of Christianity (perhaps given you by a Christian that didn't really understand?).

Christians are no better morally or ethically than non-theists. We have the same "human nature". However, the point is that we believe in what Jesus did for us. He died to cover for these bad things that we do to each other. Upon truly believing, then a Christian should want to make every effort to do away with immoral things though we don't always steer clear. I you realize that you also wrong people or even yourself occasionally, and you can believe that Jesus died in payment for those wrongs, then perhaps you would be a better example of Christianity to those you wish would change. Think about it.

We are all like sheep following our mentors and heroes in some fashion... But the real question is, can you break away from that herd mentality long enough to look at other views and find truth?

Sincerely,
Ish

[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: Ish ]

sighhswolf

Thank you Ish as usual for a thoughtful
and insightful reply.
And you are correct, I must constantly remind myself that with the knowledge I do have, gained in seminary and the reading and studing I have done that brought me to the
current intellectual level and opinion that
there is just not enough evidence for me to
adhere to any organized religious faiths,
that I really know just enough to get myself into trouble. Ha!

In all seriousness though it is extremely difficult not to speak out when there is
attacks on your personal views, and convictions, for either side.

After all the subject is not who you voted for in the last election, or how much taxes you think homeowners should have to pay, the subject is how you live your life.

It always seems to regress into an attack on someones honesty, ethics, and lifestyle.

This probably is not the correct place for this discussion but I started it, so I am going to state my opinion.

You see Ish, I dont believe it is possible for one mans death to atone for all the sins of mankind throughout the history of the world.

I also dont believe that as the greatest christian missionary said, that all you need is faith to be accepted into the kingdom of God.

I dont believe that If the Jesus Christ as portrayed in the Christian New Testament were alive today.....he would be a christian.

I am not a christian, but I dont hate all christians.
I am not a muslim, but I dont hate all muslims.
I am not a mormon, but I dont hate all mormons.
I am not a catholic, but I dont hate all catholics.
I am not a Jew, but I dont hate all Jews.
Do you see a pattern here?

I may be slightly different than most non-theist, but I certainly do believe in religious tolerance, No, I have to retract that ,
most of the non-theists I have been associated with believe in tolerance for other peoples beliefs, as long as they do not try to impose those beliefs on those who do not welcome them.

I have yet to see a single non-theist knocking on doors and spreading the word of
Atheism.

I have not seen any Agnostics preaching on street corners and begging for money either.
Or non-theists on TV preaching and saying they have the power to heal sickness by a simple prayer (as long as you have given freely when you first walked in the door).
Although I must admit I was tempted at one time to do that. It may have worked and made me rich, who knows?

I have yet to see a single non-theist tell a 15 year old kid that if they dont accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour, that they will burn in hell for all eternity.

I have yet to see a single non-theist proclaim that their way is the only way for a person to be happy, and have a satisfying life.

I have yet to see a single non-theist say that without God in your families life, you as a parent have doomed you children to hell for eternity.

I have yet to see a single non-theist proclaim that every single rough period in a persons life, every single unnecessary death, every single torture of innocents,
every single catastrophic geological event visited on mankind are all the will of some unseen force that is dealing out punishment for the ignorance and Godlessness of us stupid humans.

I have yet to hear a single non-theist say to anyone that the answer to all of their problems, be they emotional, financial, terminal illness, mental health can ALL be solved by putting their faith in Jesus.

Jesus as far as I have been able to determine, did exist. I am not one of those folks who say that the actual historic figure of Christ was only a myth.
I say that he was mysticized after his death in order to promote the new "Faith".

Be that as it may, I hold no innate hatred for those who do not hold to my convictions.
But I have always given others the benefit of the doubt and respected their views, simple consideration for your fellow man.

I only state facts as I know them, and can be wrong at any time. I realize that I am not a scholar, I am not an archeologist,
I am not a Priest, although I was at one time. And that information gathered by others can and usually is tainted by preconceived notions that skew the actual results in the direction of those notions.

There is one quote that I use all the time that pretty much sums up my attitude.
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your common sense."
Buddha

It would seem the the fervor of religiosity
creates a human with no will of it's own.
A creature that owes it's survival to a source that cannot be seen quantified or qualified.
A creature that will kill to defend it's perception of the myth of divinity.
A creature who has no creative thought process independent of it's source of knowledge, the clergy and it's doctrines.

Am I being bigoted when I make the above statements? No, because I speak truth.

But is it truth for someone who doesn't know me to say that I am without ethics?
That I am without morality?
That I am a poor father to my children?
These are the ideas of the Bible.
These are the concepts taught by the God of the Hebrews.
And those concepts compare me with the lowest form of life on this planet, and condemn me to the status of animal.

No I am afraid that the experiences on which I base my opinions and convictions have been thrust upon me by the Clergy and their interpretations of the Holy Word of God.
Wolf

nogods4me

Oh the Protestants hate the Catholics
and the Catholics hate the Protestants
and the Muslims hate the Hindus
and everybody hates the Jews

Tom Lehrer- "National Brotherhood Week"