Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dogwood · 07-23-2001, 05:02 PM

Hi. I'm new and hoping not to make a complete ass of myself, but I guess we'll see. My question is directed at literalist/inerrantists I suppose. In essence;

There have been dozens of attempts to find "Noah's Ark", (and some even claim to have done so) but no hard evidence has ever been presented. But my real question is, if you you believe the story of the Great Flood is true and that "Noah's Ark" did exist, why would anyone ever expect to find it?

Let's assume, for the moment, that the account is true, that Noah and company floated on the ocean for nearly a year. They eventually settle in the mountains of Ararat and began the whole mess over again. Noah and family will now need wood for cooking fires, heating fires, sacrificial fires, also for building shelters and pens.

All of the trees on the planet have been underwater and deprived of sunlight for nearly a year. They have rotted and are useless. Wouldn't you expect that Noah and the next few generations would HAVE to cannabilize the Ark to meet their basic needs? So why would anyone ever expect to find the Ark in the first place? That's my question.

dogwood

Marduk · 07-24-2001, 03:30 PM

"So why would anyone ever expect to find the Ark in the first place"
Some people are so desparate to prove the Bible correct that they'll do anything no matter how pointless or silly.

joedad · 07-25-2001, 10:07 AM

dogwood,

Only the most complete of (otherwise intelligent) idiots will put any credence in the literal flood story, and that is probably why they have thus far remained quiet in this thread.

Have you ever done the math in the forty-days-of-rain scenario?

In order to cover all the dry land in water, you would need 725 feet - yes, that's FEET - of rain every day for forty days. Dude, that's 30.2 feet - yes, that's FEET - of rain every hour starting with the first hour. We talk about rain in inches today. How would you like to try to explain it raining 362 inches of rain in the first hour of your fantasy flood, and then keep it up all day and then for forty more days?!!!!

Why not let it rain for one hour and just shut off all the faucets? The atmosphere would have been so totally saturated with water that any land-breather would have succumbed anyway, even "boat people". Trees would have been pounded flat, and every land surface would be under 30 feet of water, from sea level to the highest peak, after that first hour.

Do you see the absolute stupidity in this literal scenario?

Now if old Noah was just doing some colonizing like those island-hopping Polynesians, bringing along his "family" and some wares to start new settlements, and that this story got mixed up somehow with the Black Sea flood caused by rising sea levels, we might have something intelligent to discuss, as opposed to a thirty-feet-of-rain-an-hour scenario, for example.

Joe

dogwood · 07-25-2001, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by joedad:

Have you ever done the math in the forty-days-of-rain scenario?

Well I haven't. But, I've read some of the calculations of others, including the math you describe.

Quote:

In order to cover all the dry land in water, you would need 725 feet - yes, that's FEET - of rain every day for forty days. Dude, that's 30.2 feet - yes, that's FEET - of rain every hour starting with the first hour. We talk about rain in inches today. How would you like to try to explain it raining 362 inches of rain in the first hour of your fantasy flood, and then keep it up all day and then for forty more days?!!!!

I also understand that the kinetic energy released by such a rapid deluge would raise the temperature of the water to boiling, and be powerful enough to erode most mountains within a matter of hours.

Quote:

Do you see the absolute stupidity in this literal scenario?

Oh hey, me too. With my question I was attempting not to challenge the scientific absurdity of such a premise, but to encourage Christians to question the practical aspects of the situation. When I read about ICR expeditions to Ararat, I have to wonder why an honest person would ever attempt such an undertaking in the first place.

Thanks for the replies,

dogwood

-DM- · 07-25-2001, 05:23 PM

Attempts to find Noah's Ark are doomed to failure for the reason that it never existed, of course; the biblical story is nothing more than a makeover of a preexisting story [see The Flood]. Still, the shenanigans surrounding the attempts to find Noah's Ark make for interesting reading. A good little book on the subject is: Where Is Noah's Ark? Mystery on Mount Ararat by Lloyd R. Bailey, professor of Old Testament at Duke Divinity School.

One of the points made in this book, one which I didn't catch until I read this book, is that the Bible talks not about Mt. Ararat, but rather "the mountains of Ararat." No one knows with certainty exactly where those mountains are. (The mountain that has come to be known as Mt. Ararat and on which most of the recent expeditions have been made is actually named Agri Dari.)

--Don--

Agnostic Al · 07-25-2001, 05:30 PM

God can not allow the ark to be found because that would prevent xian's from having to have Faith. The fact that the Ark can't be found is actually proof of God's existance.

Well, as much as the Atheist's lack of proof that there is no god; is proof that there is a God.

copernicus · 07-25-2001, 06:08 PM

Flood myths predate the Bible and probably refer back to the actual historical event where the Mediterranean Sea spilled over the Bosporus and inundated the Black Sea basin. See this for a more ancient account of the Flood. The Hebrew myth was borrowed from Babylonia and incorporated into the Bible.

[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: copernicus ]

Ion · 07-25-2001, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Agnostic Al:
<STRONG>God can not allow the ark to be found because that would prevent xian's from having to have Faith. The fact that the Ark can't be found is actually proof of God's existance.

Well, as much as the Atheist's lack of proof that there is no god; is proof that there is a God.</STRONG>

Wow, Agnostic Al.
Any proof outside the Bible, for your claim?

EatMeRaw · 07-31-2001, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Agnostic Al:
<STRONG>God can not allow the ark to be found because that would prevent xian's from having to have Faith. The fact that the Ark can't be found is actually proof of God's existance.

Well, as much as the Atheist's lack of proof that there is no god; is proof that there is a God.</STRONG>

OH!! That is a good reason!!! Hmm. I see.. but..

If it is so, then why Jesus have perform miracles and have to tell everyone that he ressurrected after his death as a "prove" of GOD's existence? Aren't there witnesses that saw him after his "death" at the cross? At both Galileo and another place?

BTW.. where exactly did the bible say where Jesus was immediately after he got "resurrected"? Galileo(Matthew)? or Jerusalem(Luke)? Hmm?? Why the discripencies?

The problem of GOD is: you guys can twist the whole thing round and round to defend a fact and that is amazing you know..

EatMeRaw · 07-31-2001, 06:45 PM

Also..

Since it is a flood, the fishes and those birds, reptiles, fishes, etc may survive.. which also means.. GOD did not "cleanse" the world properly? Which also means that there are fishes that have histories more than 4400 years ago!!

Why GOD chose to kill all land-based mammals and not reptiles (like frogs) and fishes and whales, and squids, and etc..?

07-23-2001, 05:02 PM	#1
dogwood Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: new orleans Posts: 61	Noah's Ark and its remains Hi. I'm new and hoping not to make a complete ass of myself, but I guess we'll see. My question is directed at literalist/inerrantists I suppose. In essence; There have been dozens of attempts to find "Noah's Ark", (and some even claim to have done so) but no hard evidence has ever been presented. But my real question is, if you you believe the story of the Great Flood is true and that "Noah's Ark" did exist, why would anyone ever expect to find it? Let's assume, for the moment, that the account is true, that Noah and company floated on the ocean for nearly a year. They eventually settle in the mountains of Ararat and began the whole mess over again. Noah and family will now need wood for cooking fires, heating fires, sacrificial fires, also for building shelters and pens. All of the trees on the planet have been underwater and deprived of sunlight for nearly a year. They have rotted and are useless. Wouldn't you expect that Noah and the next few generations would HAVE to cannabilize the Ark to meet their basic needs? So why would anyone ever expect to find the Ark in the first place? That's my question. dogwood

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07-24-2001, 03:30 PM	#2
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"So why would anyone ever expect to find the Ark in the first place" Some people are so desparate to prove the Bible correct that they'll do anything no matter how pointless or silly.

07-25-2001, 10:07 AM	#3
joedad Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: PA USA Posts: 5,039	dogwood, Only the most complete of (otherwise intelligent) idiots will put any credence in the literal flood story, and that is probably why they have thus far remained quiet in this thread. Have you ever done the math in the forty-days-of-rain scenario? In order to cover all the dry land in water, you would need 725 feet - yes, that's FEET - of rain every day for forty days. Dude, that's 30.2 feet - yes, that's FEET - of rain every hour starting with the first hour. We talk about rain in inches today. How would you like to try to explain it raining 362 inches of rain in the first hour of your fantasy flood, and then keep it up all day and then for forty more days?!!!! Why not let it rain for one hour and just shut off all the faucets? The atmosphere would have been so totally saturated with water that any land-breather would have succumbed anyway, even "boat people". Trees would have been pounded flat, and every land surface would be under 30 feet of water, from sea level to the highest peak, after that first hour. Do you see the absolute stupidity in this literal scenario? Now if old Noah was just doing some colonizing like those island-hopping Polynesians, bringing along his "family" and some wares to start new settlements, and that this story got mixed up somehow with the Black Sea flood caused by rising sea levels, we might have something intelligent to discuss, as opposed to a thirty-feet-of-rain-an-hour scenario, for example. Joe

07-25-2001, 05:23 PM	#5
-DM- Honorary Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: West Coast Posts: 5,714	Attempts to find Noah's Ark are doomed to failure for the reason that it never existed, of course; the biblical story is nothing more than a makeover of a preexisting story [see The Flood]. Still, the shenanigans surrounding the attempts to find Noah's Ark make for interesting reading. A good little book on the subject is: Where Is Noah's Ark? Mystery on Mount Ararat by Lloyd R. Bailey, professor of Old Testament at Duke Divinity School. One of the points made in this book, one which I didn't catch until I read this book, is that the Bible talks not about Mt. Ararat, but rather "the mountains of Ararat." No one knows with certainty exactly where those mountains are. (The mountain that has come to be known as Mt. Ararat and on which most of the recent expeditions have been made is actually named Agri Dari.) --Don--

07-25-2001, 05:30 PM	#6
Agnostic Al New Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: San Antonio TX Posts: 4	God can not allow the ark to be found because that would prevent xian's from having to have Faith. The fact that the Ark can't be found is actually proof of God's existance. Well, as much as the Atheist's lack of proof that there is no god; is proof that there is a God.

07-25-2001, 06:08 PM	#7
copernicus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Bellevue, WA Posts: 1,531	Flood myths predate the Bible and probably refer back to the actual historical event where the Mediterranean Sea spilled over the Bosporus and inundated the Black Sea basin. See this for a more ancient account of the Flood. The Hebrew myth was borrowed from Babylonia and incorporated into the Bible. [ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: copernicus ]

07-31-2001, 06:45 PM	#10
EatMeRaw Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: High Sierra Mountains Posts: 33	Also.. Since it is a flood, the fishes and those birds, reptiles, fishes, etc may survive.. which also means.. GOD did not "cleanse" the world properly? Which also means that there are fishes that have histories more than 4400 years ago!! Why GOD chose to kill all land-based mammals and not reptiles (like frogs) and fishes and whales, and squids, and etc..?

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