Hi , Im currently doign some study in this matter as to what the Bible says about Hell . The primary concern being the contrast with the notion held by mainstream Christianity & society in general compared with what the Bible says .


I just came by , read a few posts & found numerous people objecting to the notion of a hell which is eternal suffering , Id have to agree it doesnt sound very nice . But what if the Bible teaches something vastly otherwise to the general opinion held ?


If we look at the first sin so to speak , God sent humanity from the Garden so as to not eat of the Fruit of Life & -live forever- .

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. Gen 3 : 22 - 23


How about a favourite Christians verse

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3 : 16


it looks to me that the key verses all through out the Bible which deal with humanity's spiritual condition & fate , all talk about life being gained instead of lost . The contrast is represented most vividly in this very commonly quoted verse that those who believe will not -perish- but -live forever-

I think if we look at the concept of Hell as it is expressed in the Bible , the teaching of eternal suffering doesnt hold much water . If we look at hell in it's rightful context & not a selective collage of verses , then it looks nothing like the common concept taught to us at an early age .

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelations 22 : 14


here at the end of the bok we are presented once again with this Tree of Life ( evidently symbolic ) . All through out the bible Hell in it's original terminilogy & meaning , plainly observable by context demonstrates a state of physical & spiritual death , it does not anywhere say it is an eternal suffering , but an eternal damnation .

Considering all the given examples of the word & concept hell in the bible & that multiple key themes all tie in with the same concept , adhereing to the idea that hell is the loss of life . Then how much basis does mainstream Christianity have if the Bible teaches something radically different ? I realise that as said above , if people get wholly selective on their verses & disregard the rest of the Bible ( not an uncommon practice ) then the general notion of hell can be maintained . But if we are to look at the concept of Hell all throughout the Bible , the whole book being the setting for context then , there needs to be some clarification because what people say is considerably different to what the Bible says .

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20 : 13 - 14


Here we see Hell & Death giving up the dead & then being destroyed in what is known as the second ( final or absolute ) death .

Id like to do a more thorough study on this concept as tuahgt in the Bible contrasted to what people say , so I figure this would be a good place to collect information .

Hi

Hell is to live with the eternal damnation contained in the paradox "sinful yet saved." This conclusion is based on the major premiss that through rebirth we born into eternal life and so to have been born into eternal life without having been freed from the conviction of the law and sin is to be faced with death despite our eternal mode of existence. Hence our desire to ascend will be forever but since our sin will prevent us from doing this many will perish--even while burning with the desite to ascend at the foot of the cross --until the second death do us part.

Amos


[This message has been edited by Amos123 (edited May 05, 2001).]

well thats an interesting explanation for the general notion taught , are you a Christian ? We've all been taught some interesting things in the name of Christianity . But a very strange & disturbing thing Ive learnt is that many things Christians say or teach are not consistent with the Bible . So after my previous readings & last night some further study , I cant see how hell is ever rendered as eternal -conscious- ( key emphasis on the conscious aspect of this matter ) damnation . Always it is referred to as a total destruction of being . This is where the * unquenchable fire * concern is found to be consistent with the Bible as it explains this process & not the typical everlasting hellfire view held so dearly by many . In many cases in the Old Testament the words unqenchable fire is used even well after the fire has gone out . Why ? Because the words used bring about a new defintion in Western language . Unquenchable in al rewferences means until whatever is being burned if fully consumed . With all that in mind , with what the events of the spiritual portrayal displayed in the Bible , with the meanings of unquenchable fire , hell & death explained why do people insist otherwise why have Christians looked past Jesus own words


And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mat 10 : 28


I dont think all people are born again into Eternal life , this is why in the scripture Jesus referred to himself as the * Way * & the narrow gate or passing , which would be into the city where the Tree of Life is attainable ( clearly symbolic ) .


Now as I understand it , if we follow scripture , we we ushered out from the Garden away form the tree Jesus came to buy our way back in , so until we reach that point , where does the eternal life kick in for those who havent made the cut ? It doesnt follow suit , hellfire Christians by all apearances must overlook the very basis of scripture to continue their scare tactics .


As well , Ive came here to learn because after this I want to explain this in detail to numerous Christians ( many who will be saddended to find their book no longer syas their enemies will burn forever ) . If you are Christian then help me to understand how your view is maintained in light of scripture .


Im not trying to be offensive , this is simply a sincere ocncern about a very disturbing notion taught & many people whether Christian or not delight in this horror , but if the Bibel clearly teaches otherwise , then why insist on such a confusion . If Im mistaken help me to understand scripture .

I read your messages and since you didn't include very many verse in your post, I thought I would include some (so people can see what the Bible says before they say what they think it says). I'll try to include the context whenever possible, but that could make for a very long letter. Instead, please look everything up for a more accurate interpretation (http://bible.gospelcom.net/). So here we go.

As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. 24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind
ISAIAH 6:22-24

Everyone will be salted with fire.
MARK 9:49

He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death
REVELATIONS 21:6-8

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
REVELATIONS 21:11-15

(PS. I noticed that you left out verse 15 from this paragraph, so please don't judge others for taking verses out of context.)

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
REVELATIONS 20:10

As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
MATTHEW 13:40-43

Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
MATTHEW 13:47-50

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

MT 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

MT 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
MATTHEW 7:13-21

Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

MT 22:4 "Then he sent some more servants and said, `Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'

MT 22:5 "But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

MT 22:8 "Then he said to his servants, `The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

MT 22:11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 `Friend,' he asked, `how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

MT 22:13 "Then the king told the attendants, `Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

MT 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."
MATTHEW 22:1-14

Sorry this is so long, but the Bible does talk explicitly about what Hell will be like. There are too many more include (MATTHEW 24:51, MATTHEW 25:30, LUKE 13:28, to name a few) But here is the one that I think best represents it.

There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

LK 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell,* where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

LK 16:25 "But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

LK 16:27 "He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

LK 16:29 "Abraham replied, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

LK 16:30 " `No, father Abraham,' he said, `but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

LK 16:31 "He said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
LUKE 16:19-31

NM, I am sorry, I shouldn't have judged you by assuming you purposely left out that verse in Revelations. Will you forgive me?

-Caleb

You must have an idea of what a "Christian" is and I do not believe that I would fit into your mold of a Christian.

Are you suggesting that hell is a place where we are not conscious? If so, how could that ever lead to a total destruction of our being?

Many 'born again' [so called] Christians are on fire for some time but for most this fire will die while the suffering continues until death. Many will even deny their own salvation while others will accept suffering as their lot in life and die nonetheless with the unresolved paradox sinful yet saved.

To fear those that kill the soul and body is to fear the evangelist who will force a premature rebirth upon the ego identity of the suffering soul brought before him/her. The call of the evangelist will tug against the integrity of the sinner and if he can rupture this spiritual 'membrane' he will have forged a rebirth from carnal desire and so will have robbed the suffering soul of its virginity to render a genuine rebirth from God impossible. Read John 1:13 to understand that bebirth is possible both of God and of carnal desire. Read "Coriolanus" for the details of a Divine Comedy (rebirth from God) and read MacBeth for the details of a Senecan Tragedy (rebirth from carnal desire). These two plays were written to be juxtaposed with each other.

All people that are born again and can recall the time and place have entered the race and are no longer cold or virgin to spiritual matters. To have been awakened to the abundant life is to have been made lukewarm with the obvious result that salvation can no longer come "as a thief in the night." This means that to have accepted Jesus as your lord and savior and declared this in public (Romans 10:10) is equal to spiritual fornication (Americans most popular sport).

Yes, the way of Jesus is the way wherefore he told us to follow him and not just say "thank you Jesus for dying on the cross for me" with the connotation that now I do not have to follow you to the same extent.

So to have entered the race is to have been made aware and if we do not complete the race we will die while vagely aware (and thus lukewarm) as opposed to hot after all has been made clear and we have the mind of God. This was covered above, I think, but I will give you another point of view to to help you along.

You will agree that the difference between a comedy and a tragedy is confirmed in the end and not in the rising action or the crisis moment. This means that both comedies and tragedies have a rising action and a crisis moment. The rising action is the period of time that leads to the crisis moment. The crisis moment is the end of the rising action and brings about change or it would not be a crisis moment. If this rising action is terminated by God a comedy will result and if it was incipient by God it will be a Divine comedy. If this crisis moment was brough about by humans, such as the evangelist, parents or even the girl/boy friend the rising action will have been terminated before it own time and Love (capital L) will have been aroused before its owm time (Songs 2:7) and a tragedy will be the end of all because epiphany will not follow the crisis moment. Since there is nothing divine about such a tragedy they are called Senecan tragedies instead of divine tragedies. Both, however, deal with metamorphosis which is real and archetypal to man. This makes it prior to us by nature and not to be tampered with by our fallen human condition so eagerly displayed by the marauding evangelist.

Hell now becomes the eternally wounded soul that will have been robbed from its own "God given right" (archetypal destiny) to mature into final adulthood (mind of God). I used the words "final adulthood" but should really be called "Christhood" in our mytholgy. This Christian will be learned "IN the reign of God" and does not need the bible to learn about the reign of God (Jn.5:39-40).

Amos

I read your messages and since you didn't include very many verse in your post, I thought I would include some (so people can see what the Bible says before they say what they think it says). I'll try to include the context whenever possible, but that could make for a very long letter. Instead, please look everything up for a more accurate interpretation (http://bible.gospelcom.net/). So here we go. -----

firstly those I laid down are very select indeed because they cut to the very core of the issue . Im very willing & think it is necessary that we go over the whole teaching of * hell * found in the Bible , in considerable detail .


---- As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. 24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind
ISAIAH 6:22-24 ------

Okay Im note sure why you cite this verse to indicate everlasting suffering , the very last sentence itself clearly says these people are dead . Examples like these should help make it apparent the exact nature of this spiritual state

----Everyone will be salted with fire.
MARK 9:49 -----

I really fail to understand the point you try to make here

-----
He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death
REVELATIONS 21:6-8 -------


so we agree ? If you are saying otherwise , then please instead of just quoting scripture as though it says something contrary to what Ive tried to explain , it requires you to say just how this translates into eternal conscious suffering namely the western connotation of the concept of hell


-------- Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
REVELATIONS 21:11-15
(PS. I noticed that you left out verse 15 from this paragraph, so please don't judge others for taking verses out of context.) ----------

right , tell me what on earth have I left out ?

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 21 : 15


Yes the lake of fire , THE SECOND DEATH , though my previous post was short this point was emphasised . But since you charge me of purposely leaving out crucial material on this matter , please tell me . As to this point you’ve cited scripture which is consistent to what I tried to show , you’ve cited scripture that does not mention eternal suffering for individuals & then you’ve somehow managed to say Im leaving something out . But the very verse I * left out * covers the exact point if not the primary point I conveyed . Hell is the second death , so what is your complaint & where is my fault ?

---- And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
REVELATIONS 20:10 -----


yeah this is a good one & something I’ll gladly explain . Forever & ever is an idiom in the English language , it makes sense to us the same as it’s raining cats & dogs , yet this clearly does not mean cats & dogs are raining ( which would make very little sense for practically all purposes of this phrase ) . Im guessing we have this phrase in modern English due to the Bible .The exact rendering of - forever & ever * in the Greek is


eis tous aionas ton aionon anabainei


which does not say forever & ever , but for the ages unto the ages ( in other words quite sometime ) . This is not some deft twist of scripture , anyone that feels the need to object go & have a look , look at the meaning of the word & how likely I assume how we arrived with out present day idiom .


Now consider the origin of the phrase & just how much sense it makes in plain English ( which is not the origin of this phrase ) FOREVER ( as in forever ) but then we also say & EVER ? Can we see that in plain English where this phrase did not develop it makes no sense , it’s like repeating yourself twice . The reason is 1 it is not an English derived phrase & 2 It’s not rendered correctly in English . As I said anyone that feels otherwise , go learn something new , but this point needs to be understood .


Hell being another loosely applied word to numerous concepts , which is clearly demonstrated in this phrase , demonstrating how the English rendition overlaps itself by not clearly defining evidently two or more different things .

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20 : 14

here we are again with the same concept overlapping itself in such an audacious fashion that clearly it’s time for clarification . Since you are referring to this Lake of Fire as hell , then we can begin to see the problems if Hell is giving up it’s dead & then itself being cast in Hell . This is basically the same problem coming through on another front , but it’s not that hard with just a simple study to understand what is going on here to detail everything in rightful consistent working order . What we are left with is that * hell * is destruction ,the Lake of Fire which the Bible stresses as the Second Death .


----- As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.-------


yup , well as said above , somehow I cant see how you cite this as clear indication as scripture that clearly says people are going to burn consciously in hell forever . It does say that people will be divided & those who do not meet the entry requirement will weep & gnash their teeth . Well what can we expect ? I know very few people who would rejoice at the prospect of an eternal death sentence , especially in the great light of the notion of eternal joyous life .


------ MATTHEW 13:40-43
Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. -----


there are plenty of verses where Jesus mentions that separation but why insist that somehow imbedded into these verses it clearly spells out eternal suffering , when in the same context Jesus also clearly says whether through terminology or what would be already accepted as the standard due to the previous teachings all throughout the Old Testament of hell being a place of destruction , fire being instrument in consuming . Thats the problem , you are trying to cite verses numerous times as to indicate the teaching of eternal suffering , but I ask where ? Please dont just say , * Im sorry for not elaborating ( at all ) that would be very long * then leave verses which do not maintain the view you try to endorse , especially in consideration that Jesus -already- taught what Hell is & what happens ( being destruction ) , that this notion is already like idioms in our society clearly understood . It may as evidently has , be construed in another language though as previously detailed , the scripture clearly shows all 64 times the word hell is used in the Old testament & that Jesus audience would already literally subscribe to this view already taught & fully integrated into the society of that time . Why suggest contrary to all else as well as not found in the verses you present that they say directly otherwise ?


-----MATTHEW 13:47-50
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. -------

yes excellent , the road the way to Life , few find it . What is the opposite to life ? Where do you find the teaching the very concept of you’ll burn consciously in hell forever & ever in these verses ?


----MT 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. -----


well I think it’s apparent what Id have to say here

----- MT 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
MATTHEW 7:13-21
Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
MT 22:4 "Then he sent some more servants and said, `Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'
MT 22:5 "But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
MT 22:8 "Then he said to his servants, `The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
MT 22:11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 `Friend,' he asked, `how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.
MT 22:13 "Then the king told the attendants, `Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
MT 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."
MATTHEW 22:1-14
Sorry this is so long, but the Bible does talk explicitly about what Hell will be like. -----


yeah I agrre the Bible does just that & in each & every case you’ve presented , you have not shown me where this concept comes into play , exactly otherwise if anything has come from this demonstration . But I dont consider this long , dealing with theo-psycho babble curve balls is something anyone who wants to ask Christians their point of view as ordained by scripture has to be prepared for . Im not saying that you are doing just that , but am saying Im used to tedious posts for people to try & make point though one cant seem to be found .


---- There are too many more include (MATTHEW 24:51, MATTHEW 25:30, LUKE 13:28, to name a few) But here is the one that I think best represents it. ---

hey be my guest cite them all , from beginning . None of them at all teach eternal suffering for people * forever & ever * , it’s not there , quite the opposite . In fact ask yourself , what was the first lie that Lucifer told ? This same lie can still clearly be observed manifest today in the belief though it is not found in the Bible .

---- There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. Luke 13 : 28----


this doesnt say anything -but- show people are going to be visibly upset when they see themselves exempt from the eternal life . To maintain that somehow the concept of eternal suffering is cryptically contained within this verse is a feat in itself , it’s not there is it ? But then to further make this comment in the whole context of the Bible , in regards to what Jesus has already said about Hell ( which is the exact same thing the rest of the Bible already said ) is really daring . It’s not something that can be readily achieved , unless mentioned , people get wholly selective on verses making a collage whilst disregarding the entire body of scripture . So when you accuse me of leaving things out ( which I did not , the very verse you say I left out is solely concerned about the main point I emphasised in my post , the second death , it’s a mystery to me as to how or why you suggest I did otherwise ) take careful consideration as to what you leave out , being the setting already present whether through the obvious culture , simply understood as a Bible culture in the extreme sense , adhering to the concepts taught by the Bible or to make it even easier for these tasks, what Jesus himself has ALREADY clearly said about Hell . That it is a destruction of body & soul , the only reason I have to emphasis this point is because people insist on ignoring the obvious & focusing on select verses which do not say anything otherwise , that must be construed to fit the general model of Hell .

----- There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
LK 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell,* where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
LK 16:25 "But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
LK 16:27 "He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
LK 16:29 "Abraham replied, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
LK 16:30 " `No, father Abraham,' he said, `but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
LK 16:31 "He said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
LUKE 16:19-31-----

The example of Lazarus has been often used to support the notion of eternal suffering in hell , if only because it is the -only- given case of consciousness after death . But it is not which is clear by it’s own account a literal example of Heaven & Hell . It is simply a parable , like all other parables , they are not literal cases or events


All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: Mat 13 : 34


however all the parables are analogies imbued with a purposeful meaning that is to be understood . How we know this is a parable is quite simply context , or the audacity of this example if it were to be considered a literal case . In this thread only to a degree but all throughout the Bible , from the very beginning in the Garden right up to Jesus , the Bible says death is a state of unconscious we can practically translate the world Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek as unaware . So that when Jesus used this example it was evident by the typical accentuated language such as Abraham’s bosom or the fact everyone was aware holding conversations , which may without a firm understanding of scripture’s position on this matter sound acceptable but in the time & place Jesus said this , be so utterly at ends with common sense , that this was clearly said so in a fashion that would not be taken literally ( it’s raining cats & dogs , quote me in another time , place & culture 2000 years form now , lets assume how that fares ) . This is a common problem that is often overlooked , if the Bible clearly says one thing from beginning to end & then Jesus who does not speak to the masses without using parables suddenly starts a literal account of an example which is totally contrary to all else , we can see where the problem is . The previous few chapters have all been parables drawing on a relation between prosperity & spiritual condition .


To make it simple without getting lengthy & tedious


Jesus used parables in his dealings with the public

Jesus is currently going over a parable spree which all have in common links drawn between prosperity & spiritual states

In the religious cultural setting of where this parable was spoken , it simply would not be taken literal from word go . Abraham is -asleep- , Jesus has already said elsewhere no one that has died has risen to Heaven . So Jesus cannot be saying that these people are literally in Heaven or Hell , because none of this by scripture or Jesus’ own account has even happened as of yet

The rich man asks for a drop of water on his tongue ? Wow thats going to be the end of all his woes isnt it , it’s purely figurative speech to emphasis the dilemma & the purpose of this parable .


Abraham doesnt condemn the man , he says * you had good things in your life * ? If this person was confined to Hell for being a sinner why simply say * you had good things in your life * that isnt a condemnation for someone in hell


or for that matter Lazarus is by Abraham’s own words * consoled * , not exactly the best case to enter heaven or void hell for that matter .

On so many level is this obviously a parable in it’s own right & even then were it ( which in it’s rightful context it is not ) a literal example it is still not anywhere near a case for eternal suffering . As already cited above

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20 : 13 - 14

If hell gives up it’s own & then cast into the lake of fire , not a very eternal hell at all , In fact it’s blatantly temporary . Likewise as shown in the structure of the parable Lazarus is being * comforted * for the evils in his life . But is not by Jesus’ own words in Heaven , nor is the rich man by anyone’s definition in eternal hell ( which is never taught nor found in the Bible )

That parable is the only case people can use but the context of the parable & the structure inherent shows it to be just that . It is also for your point , not a case for eternal hell when * hell * itself is cast into the Lake of Fire , now we’ve got to *hells * but which is the real deal Hell ? If it’s the lake of fire then evidently we need to wash the current connotation of hell in it’s current form because by all accounts , even those you have also presented demonstrate the reality of this matter to not be consistent with the general unfounded mainstream opinion .

You must have an idea of what a "Christian" is and I do not believe that I would fit into your mold of a Christian.
Are you suggesting that hell is a place where we are not conscious? If so, how could that ever lead to a total destruction of our being? ------


I dont follow the question , how could it not ? We dont have to be aware of things for them to be so , unless you assume that our thoughts alone define reality not just how we perceive it .


---- Many 'born again' [so called] Christians are on fire for some time but for most this fire will die while the suffering continues until death. Many will even deny their own salvation while others will accept suffering as their lot in life and die nonetheless with the unresolved paradox sinful yet saved.
quote:


And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mat 10 : 28

I dont think all people are born again into Eternal life , this is why in the scripture Jesus referred to himself as the * Way * & the narrow gate or passing , which would be into the city where the Tree of Life is attainable ( clearly symbolic ) .

To fear those that kill the soul and body is to fear the evangelist who will force a premature rebirth upon the ego identity of the suffering soul brought before him/her. The call of the evangelist will tug against the integrity of the sinner and if he can rupture this spiritual 'membrane' he will have forged a rebirth from carnal desire and so will have robbed the suffering soul of its virginity to render a genuine rebirth from God impossible. Read John 1:13 to understand that bebirth is possible both of God and of carnal desire. Read "Coriolanus" for the details of a Divine Comedy (rebirth from God) and read MacBeth for the details of a Senecan Tragedy (rebirth from carnal desire). These two plays were written to be juxtaposed with each other.
All people that are born again and can recall the time and place have entered the race and are no longer cold or virgin to spiritual matters. To have been awakened to the abundant life is to have been made lukewarm with the obvious result that salvation can no longer come "as a thief in the night." This means that to have accepted Jesus as your lord and savior and declared this in public (Romans 10:10) is equal to spiritual fornication (Americans most popular sport).
Yes, the way of Jesus is the way wherefore he told us to follow him and not just say "thank you Jesus for dying on the cross for me" with the connotation that now I do not have to follow you to the same extent.
So to have entered the race is to have been made aware and if we do not complete the race we will die while vagely aware (and thus lukewarm) as opposed to hot after all has been made clear and we have the mind of God. ------


well I can see that any straight forward discussion is not going to work , the one to fear by Jesus example is not the preaching or calling of the evangelist but God , the whole purpose of this & other examples is for people to get the right perspective on life & not fall to the illusion of where the power truly is . You’ve introduced a fabricated concept not found or endorsed by the scripture , maybe if you can reconcile your view with the actual context of the scripture so that it is consistent that would be of better benefit , otherwise by your own admission you wouldnt realy subscribe to most people's definition of Christian . Buddhist certainly would ring a bell .


quote:

Now as I understand it , if we follow scripture , we we ushered out from the Garden away form the tree Jesus came to buy our way back in , so until we reach that point , where does the eternal life kick in for those who havent made the cut ? It doesnt follow suit , hellfire Christians by all apearances must overlook the very basis of scripture to continue their scare tactics .
.

This was covered above, I think, but I will give you another point of view to to help you along.
You will agree that the difference between a comedy and a tragedy is confirmed in the end and not in the rising action or the crisis moment.-------


why must I agree that something is strictly defined by the end , really the current moment will be sufficient in it’s own right to define the current moment .

-----This means that both comedies and tragedies have a rising action and a crisis moment. The rising action is the period of time that leads to the crisis moment. The crisis moment is the end of the rising action and brings about change or it would not be a crisis moment. ---

why is change necessary to define whether it is a tragedy or comedy or anything for that matter , these things can be considered for their worth at any given moment & not soley at the end moment . In fact all moments collected together paint the best overall picture of the reality .


---- If this rising action is terminated by God a comedy will result and if it was incipient by God it will be a Divine comedy. If this crisis moment was brough about by humans, such as the evangelist, parents or even the girl/boy friend the rising action will have been terminated before it own time and Love (capital L) will have been aroused before its owm time (Songs 2:7) and a tragedy will be the end of all because epiphany will not follow the crisis moment. Since there is nothing divine about such a tragedy they are called Senecan tragedies instead of divine tragedies. Both, however, deal with metamorphosis which is real and archetypal to man. This makes it prior to us by nature and not to be tampered with by our fallen human condition so eagerly displayed by the marauding evangelist. -----


hehe , A case of when we evolve to the right condition then it will be the right time ? Jesus makes it clear the individual is to actively seek , not passively wait .


----Hell now becomes the eternally wounded soul that will have been robbed from its own "God given right" (archetypal destiny) to mature into final adulthood (mind of God). I used the words "final adulthood" but should really be called "Christhood" in our mytholgy. This Christian will be learned "IN the reign of God" and does not need the bible to learn about the reign of God (Jn.5:39-40).
Amos -------


I think the obvious problems is that you set new definitions to teachings & concepts in the Bible which are neither found , endorsed or even consistent with what the scripture plainly spells out . We are not in any sense taught to be passive or wait for the right time , but to continue to grow & actively seek , not wait for God to initiate a crisis point but to actively seek such * points * , I think the talent parable would be of use here .

I think the obvious problems is that you set new definitions to teachings & concepts in the Bible which are neither found , endorsed or even consistent with what the scripture plainly spells out . We are not in any sense taught to be passive or wait for the right time , but to continue to grow & actively seek , not wait for God to initiate a crisis point but to actively seek such * points * , I think the talent parable would be of use here . [/B][/QUOTE]

Correct, I do not read the plain or literal interpretation of the bible. Your problem is that you do in one area but not in the other. First you say that we must fear those that rob us of eternal life and now you suggest that we must fear God as if God will do this to us as well.

I thought the Hell actually meant "the Grave" or 'death.' As in one of the creeds where it says Jesus decended into Hell.. well, that is not in scripture but it actually meant he died, went into the grave for 3 days...