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Old 04-20-2001, 10:16 PM   #1
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Smile He Lives! He Lives!!

Blessings and Peace

Old 04-20-2001, 10:28 PM   #2
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Disconnest your speakers before you click on the link. You have been warned
Old 04-20-2001, 10:54 PM   #3
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What is wrong with a little comforting music?

Banish your cynicism folks and listen to the musical accompaniment to a great Charles Wesley hymn.

Blessings and Peace

Old 04-21-2001, 07:15 AM   #4
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Clearly this has nothing whatever to do with the topic of this board ("Biblical Criticism and Archaeology") and probably belongs in Open Discussion. But pointing that out would probably spring the trap and unleash accusations of DOGMATIST! and CYNIC! Gotta love those booby traps.

Oops. Too late. Already happened.
Old 04-21-2001, 04:35 PM   #5
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Hello Zar

In what way is the following not relevant to criticism of the Biblical account of Christ's sacrifice for us on the Cross?

And shall I slight my Fatherís love?
Or basely fear His gifts to own?
Unmindful of His favors prove?
Shall I, the hallowed cross to shun,
Refuse His righteousness to impart,
By hiding it within my heart?

Blessings and Peace

Old 04-21-2001, 08:49 PM   #6
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Hilarius: It ain't a sacrifice if its given back 3 days later. 'round these parts, thats called "Indian giving". (Apologies to any Native Americans.)

For that matter, Jesus' garden scenes make no sense if he knows he will be raised...hell, why fret? Why be worried? If he truly was going take away the sins of the earth, the man should have been having a party!

And then his last words "My god, my god, why has thou forsaken me?"...

Tell me truly...does that sound like a triumphant remission of sin...or the painful realization of a man who realizes his delusion was just that...a delusion?
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Old 04-21-2001, 09:34 PM   #7
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Don't act so surprised, Hilarius. Even if there is relevance, you must at least see that your post is pretty light on context and explanation. You just posted a link and said "Blessings." Anyway, I guess I shouldn't be at all surprised that just about anything can be found "relevant" by someone, even if it is only relevant to them alone.

Frankly, this looks more like testimonial to me than any particular point about Biblical criticism and archaeology. Note the word "Biblical." That does mean something to you, right? Usually to most people it means "having to do with words contained in the Bible," not the testimony of some song-writer. You could at least help us out by providing some explanation which shows how the lyrics solve some issue at hand relating to...guess what? Biblical Criticism and Archaeology.

I take "Biblical Criticism and Archaeology" to mean we should be talking about what the Bible says, what it means, what problems of interpretation there are and their solutions, alomg with issues related to new discoveries which support or detract from some view of Biblical truth.

Of course, almost anything can have relevance if you search hard enough. But it might be nice if you would state your purpose or what you are trying to address rather than posting hymns without any particular explanation other than "Blessings and Peace." Have you ever taken a composition or a speech class? Didn't they tell you about this stuff where you went to school? I'll bet they have.

But hey, man, have it your way. I can't stop you. And I'm not going to argue this to the last. Just pointing something out.
Old 04-23-2001, 04:56 AM   #8
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And then his last words "My god, my god, why has thou forsaken me?"...

I guess you never read the Psalms? That's a direct quote of the 22nd Psalm. I can't justify it from your perspective, though, since your perspective appears to preculde that. I dunno, maybe you'll figure out what I mean if you read the whole Psalm that verse came from? Besides, it is best understood on an emotional level, not an analytic one, which is usually where we go wrong. Analytically, the love my mother had for me sounds pretty flat is it really the case that: "it was all imprinted by evolution that a mother care for her progeny; love as we know it is an illusion, she just wanted her genes passed on whether anyone realizes that or not."

-But love is real!
How do you know? You saw it?
-Ummm, no. I felt it...
How do you know you aren't just kidding yourself??
-Well, umm, others have felt it too!
That doesn't prove anything! I could feel love and call it "marklar" and claim it was different & you couldn't prove me wrong! You're just a diluded wacko feeding off stupid, baseless "feelings" which don't amount to a hill of beans! I WANT PROOF!!!
-What about all the biochemicals that go through our bodies as evidence of something happening?
So love can be injected into you? Love is just a chemical?? Big whoop! I don't care, you're not only an idiot but a drug addict now!

Is that absurd enough yet? Can I stop now? :] That fake conversation became silly, fast :] It's -meant- as a form of reductio ad absurdam. I hope no one will argue that I found the absurdam at least... :]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Psalm 22

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the praise of Israel. [1]

4 In you our fathers put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me [2] in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced [3] my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off; O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save [4] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly; before those who fear you [5] will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; they who seek the LORD will praise him-- may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him-- those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn-- for he has done it.

[3] Or Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel
[15] Or I am laid
[16] Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts like the lion,
[21] Or you have heard
[25] Hebrew him

Old 04-24-2001, 10:04 AM   #9
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"Hear O' Israel, HaShem is our G-d, HaShem alone"

Psalm 22


The missionaries will say that Psalm 22 Describes the vents of the crucifiction of Jesus described in detail 1000 years in advance. They will specifically point to verse 1 and compare it to the words Jesus said on the cross as quoted in Matthew 27:46 of the New Testament "About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'E loi, E loi, lama sabachthani?' -- which means "My G-d, my G-d, why have you forsaken me?' "

The Reply is Yes, Matt 27:46 does quote Psalm 22 in part,as the Psalm does have the author say "My G-d, my G-d why have you forsaken me?" But if you read the entire Psalm of David, you may also notice that the person in question is asking the L-rd in verses 20-21 to save him from the sword. It is more likely that this Psalm refers to David himself when he was fleeing Saul.

You might also ask yourself, why, if Jesus is G-d as the Chrisitians claim, did he cry out to G-d asking why He had forsaken him. It is simply not logical. Of course, Jesus the man, who is not G-d, could certainly be expected to cry out to G-d when he was being crucified for rebellion to Rome.

The missionaries will say further say that 22:8,9 has the person mocked and taunted and that Jesus was mocked and taunted in Matt27:39-43 and Luke 23:11-35.

The Reply is that many people have been mocked and taunted, this does not refer exclusively to Jesus. In fact, since the Psalm is taking about David, it is more logical to assume that David was being mocked and taunted when fleeing Saul.

The missionaries will say additionally, that verse 22:15-18 refer to the crucifixtion as depicted in Matt 27:31, Mark15:20,25, and John19:15 in the New Testament.

The Reply is that verses 15-18 say (JPS): " My life ebbs away; all my bones are disjointed; my heart is like wax, melting within me; my vigor dries up like a shard; my tongue cleaves to my palate; You commit me to the dust of the earth. Dogs surround me; a pack of evil ones closes in on me, like lions [they maul] my hands and feet. I take the count of all my bones while they look on and gloat." (JPS) Notice that this in no way refers to crucifixion. The Christian missionaries often will show you a mistranslation of this, writting "they peirce my hands and feet" instead of "like lions [they maul] my hands and feet". The Hebrew there is k'ari which means like a lion, not peirced. Additionally, having dogs surround him and also lions makes more sense. Mistranslations prove only that the missionaries trying to convert you are deceptive. David was the one beset here by his enemies, those who allied themselves with Saul, not Jesus. I would also note that this is all present tense, and is not a prophecy of the future.

The missionaries will say that verse 22:19 is a prophecy that people will cast lots for the Messiah's garments and will mention the events in Matt 27:35, Mark 15:24, and John 19:23-24 where it is said that they cast lots over Jesus' garments.

The Reply is that as the rest of this psalm refered to David, it is logical that this also refers to David. The verse says "They divide my cloths among themselves, casting lots for my garments" Notice that verse 8 says that the person whose cloths is being divided takes count of his bones while they look on and gloat. Clearly this is a man who is starving. I suggest a careful reading of the entire psalm from a Jewish translation.

as found at :
Old 04-24-2001, 04:45 PM   #10
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Gaudete! Christus est natus Ex Maria virginae gaudete!

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