Least it be said that the Baby offers the SecWeb nothing but foul-mouthed rantings to vent his childish, youthful angst; and also to get down to the main reason why we are all here, I ask: why should anybody become a Christian? The Gospels will probably take center stage here for their "evidence" of Jesus' supernatural nature. I'd like to point out that the argument that the Gospel authors would not make up stories about Jesus because they 'wouldn't die for a lie', is groundless:[list=1][*]We have no solid evidence that they were killed for their beliefs[*]Given the fact that, presumably, all other religions stories of the supernatural are false (according to Christians), yet those who instigated the stories withstood persecution for it, it is no leap of the imagination to assume the Gospel authors would do the same[/list=a]

Also, even if we accept that they all really did believe they saw Jesus raise from the dead, I wonder how such "evidence" is somehow superior to the thousands of haunting reports that are collected by paranormal investigators each year. Hell, if you add up all the people who have claimed to see ghosts in all of human existence, the number probably comes to millions of people, across thousands of years of history and numerous cultural boundaries. If this isn't even enough to prove the existence of ghosts (which BTW are a distinctly unchrisian idea - "today you will be with me in paradise", also the Bible makes mention of an eventual resurrection of the dead for judgement, or of eternal damnation or paradise for believers. No mention is made of ghosts, probably because the gospel authors didn't believe in them), then how do some 2,000 year old reports from 12 superstitious fishermen fare any better?

I think you are wring on this point Luke 24:36 - 37 Now as they said these things , Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them Peace to You .... But they were terrified and frightened and supposed they had seen a spirit ....

Ther are many verse in both the OT & NT concerning familar spirits (Ghost) see 1-Samuel 28: 7 - 12 where Saul is confronted by the Ghost of Samuel ...

However the point you make about the the believe of others is not valid evidence without support is a good .... from reading some of your other posts I think you are perhaps too agressive and often go beyond the facts ....

Bigots don't need facts.

You should become a Christian because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. The two points you make:

1) We do have concrete evidence that some died for their faith. No one disputes that Paul did. And we know Peter did because Clement of Rome knew him and alludes to many still among them who saw it happen.

2) Anyone can be mistaken and die for a mistaken belief, but who would die for a belief they knew they made up?

David Koresh.
Jim Jones.
Marshall Applewhite (the Hale-Bopp guy).

And that's just a start.

Completely true, but without application in this thread.

Michael

Since you seem to be bringing up those you think parallel Jesus. Let's just take a look a the claim.

David Koresh fought against authorities with weapons. Jesus did not.

Jim Jones made everyone die with him by trapping them with armed guards. Jesus did nothing of the sort.

Marshall Applegate went peaceable enough, but he took his own life and asked his followers to kill themselves as well. Jesus was killed by the authorities.

Did any one of these people ever really do much good for other people?

The only way in which Jesus and his followers have any similarity to these people is that they had a minority view.

Ish

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ish:
Since you seem to be bringing up those you think parallel Jesus. Let's just take a look a the claim.

David Koresh fought against authorities with weapons. Jesus did not.

Wrong!

"And immediately, while he was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders...And they laid hands on him and seized him. But one of those who stood by drew his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear." (Mk. 14:43-47)

At least one of Jesus' followers was armed (there is no good reason to think that others were not armed as well) and fought against the "authorities" with a weapon.

BTW, there is no more evidence that David Koresh used a weapon than there is that Jesus used one.

rodahi

Then, Rodahi, Matthew says that Jesus reproved Peter and healed the man's ear. Did David Koresh help any of the ATF agents he killed? Did David Koresh give himself up to the authorities willingly and without a fight? No on both accounts. Jesus was different.

Ish

ok, about dying for a 'made up' belief---

what of the early mormons? They were nearly all killed of. Yet no Christian believes they have the 'truth'.

Joe Smith died for what many people say he made up.

(ANSIMC)