CX

The individual you are arguing with is gravely misinformed. The date of 25 December on the Roman calendar was the feast of Natlis Invicti a solare feast of the pagan religion of the period that was a combination of Mithraism and sun worship (Mithras was also associated with the sun). The early Church Fathers recognized that the actual birthdate of Jesus was unknown and there was no official observance of his birth until around the 4th century. Nearly any reasonably educated clergyman that attended seminary knows this and you can find discussions of it in the documents of the early church fathers. Furthermore there is no official Roman census document with Jesus' name on it nor is there even any historical record of an empire wide census in the period. Does this person also think Christ's name was actually Jesus (It was Yeshu'a ben Josef which would normally be transliterated to English as Joshua Josephson, but is transliterated as IHSOUS (no surname) in the greek texts of the NT which is where we get Jesus from in English translations).

smugg

offa, I have a couple of questions for you:

1.) Do you think Josephus, writing after 70 AD, might have gotten a couple of things wrong about events a century before he set pen to paper (stylus to papyrus -- whatever)?

2.) If ages before Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah weren't recorded, how did they know when it was time for the rite(s)? I strongly disagree with your assumption here and I can't imagine a more useless method of keeping track of dates. I suppose young children simply couldn't discuss their age...

You seem to have a true knack for running away with ideas simply because they appeal to you.

To the board: I've always wondered how useful it would be to have a census of everyone in their home town when they would obviously be expected to pay the taxes where they lived now. Traffic and banditry would obviously be a problem, but that's probably not much different than problems faced by today's pilgrims to Mecca...

Anyway, the story makes little to no sense and is obviously a literary device to place Jesus' birth in Bethlehem to better conform to OT prophesy. To my knowledge, Major Billy named the only known census from that period.

So it seems no one can even agree on a year for his birth. Guesses about the day are mostly based on speculation about when it would be most convenient to hold this ridiculous census (obviously winter because you'd be too busy sowing or harvesting at any other time to drag your family to a two week stay at your mom's house while you waited for your local tax official to come around). If the census is not an accurate report, there is really no way to even get close to a birth-date.

It seems most likely to me that Jesus was from Galilee and only showed up on the radar when he was about thirty or so as he made his bid for the throne of David. The earliest NT writers (Mark, Paul, etc.) make no mention of his birth and they all seem to agree that his death was far more significant anyway...

But Easter is another story altogether.

Sauron

No. It is AD 7. There was no such thing as a year 0 A.D.

Amos

The census of Joseph was to give an account of himself to the head of state. Joseph was the persona and the head of state was the ruler of the combined persona/man identity under which the persona served.

If carpenters make many things, and if all is made in sin, and if sin is the product of a rout, Joseph wanted to discover who exactly that second stand was againsst which he was so successfull as an enterprising carpenter. This seach was an act of integrity and made him the "upright" man he was.

So the census was a journey inward to discover who the heck was the cause of his dispair ("pregant with dispair" in "Finnigans Wake").

Jesus was definatly born on Dec.25 because the shape of the number 2 and 5 tells us so. The upside down 2 used as the number 5 indicates that the faith he once had in his ego had let him down (the "Inversion of faith") and this is what prompted the census and subsequent rebirth.

Amos

PopeInTheWoods

Hmmm. Wouldn't similar reasoning make a better case for the event to have occurred on 21 December (21/12), which has the added advantage of also being the winter solstice?

Andy (PITW)

offa

Offa;
Smugg;
"offa, I have a couple of questions for you:"
1.) Do you think Josephus, writing after 70 AD, might have
gotten a couple of things wrong about events a century before
he set pen to paper (stylus to papyrus -- whatever)?

Offa; Not really.

Encyclopaedia Britannica: Josephus, Flavius
b. AD 37/38,, Jerusalem d. AD 100,,

The Encyclopaedia Britannica is incorrect. His correct
birthdate was AD 25/26. He was an Essene and his first
11/12 years were not counted. Jesus was crucified in
AD 33 (Easter) and Josephus was a 6/7 month old infant.

This is taken from The Life of Josephus.
LIFE 009; Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen years
of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to
learning; on which account the high priests and principle
men of the city came then frequently to me together, in
order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding
of points of the law;

Using the bar mitzvah = 12 year old Josephus is 25/26
years old. Kinds of reminds you of
[i]Luke 02:42 And when he was twelve years old,
they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

doesn't it?

Smugg;
"offa, I have a couple of questions for you:"

2.) If ages before Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah weren't
recorded, how did they know when it was time for the rite(s)?


Offa; pardon me, I have never heard of Bat Mitzvah.
Regardless, here is another Josephus gem,

Book 5, Ant 05-360 On the same day his son Phineas'
wife died also, as
not able to survive the misfortune of her husband; for
they told her of her husband's death as she was in labor.
However, she bare a son at seven months, who lived, and to
whom they gave the name of Icabod, which name signified
'disgrace' - and this because the army received a disgrace
at this time.

Offa, In the above verse Phineas' is killed and his son
Icabod has not yet celebrated his bar mitzvah, therefore
she is Childless, and, thus spiritually dead.
This Icabod will appear later under a different name,
will he be Zadok or Abiathar? BTW, it takes 12 months to
become a one year-old Child (with each month being a year).

Smugg (snipped),
It seems most likely to me that Jesus was from Galilee and
only showed up on the radar when he was about thirty or so as
he made his bid for the throne of David.

Offa, Jesus never set foot in the Galilee you are referring
to. The Galilee of the gospels is alongside the Dead Sea and
in The Qumran to Ain Feshkha. BTW, Bethlehem is between
Jerusalem and the Dead Sea. Likewise ... so was Egypt.
Pseudo locations are an effective ruse used by the Essenes.
Read The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 13, chapter 11.

Omnedon1:
----------------------------------------------------
Offa;There is a record of a census taken by Augustus.
Thirty-seven years after 31 BC is the year is AD 6.
---------------------------------------------------
Omnedon1:
No. It is AD 7. There was no such thing as a year 0 A.D.


Offa;
That is an excellent point and you response solved yet another
mystery. When the residents of Jerusalem were taken captive
(by Nebuchadnezzar)
they used the Jubilee Calendar with the new year (census)
being taken during the Spring Equinox. Upon their return to
Palestine these same Jews (from Babylon) would later be ruled
by the Macedonians. They would use the Macedonian (lunar, sin)
calendar with the new year (census) taken during the Autumn
Equinox. This is after the Sept. 2 date of the Battle
of Actium. So, without a zero year the census is thirty-seven
years later.

When Jesus accepted his Father he is accepting a Gentile
who uses the Jubilee Calendar with it's Spring census. Jesus
becomes born 6 months earlier and therefore out of wedlock.

Thanks, Offa

smugg

Okay, offa, sorry I asked. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Are the restaurants nice in your world?

By the way, I'd like to clear up a couple of things for you: Bat Mitzvah is the coming of age ceremony for girls just like the Bar Mitzvah is for boys. Also, twelve months equals one year not twelve -- except in the lunar calendar used by the ancient Hebrews (and others) which sometimes had thirteen.

Amos

Perhaps, but the very shape of the number 2 signifies the division of our mind with the top half representing the subconscious mind and the bottom half turning around and going the other way along the conscious mind and away from Eden. This represents the "fall of man" in pursuit of happiness along the faculty of reason. The number tree (3), two halve circles on top of each other signify that we are divived in our own mind and thus not full circle in either (cf 8).

The number 5 therefore indicates that faith in our pursuit of happiness along the path of pleasure and pain has led us astray and deep into the jungle of life. It is here that we carve a clearing on the darkest night of our life were we endure transformation in the 666 (midnight, midwinter, midlife) which is the mark of the now non-rational animal man.

I have an explanation for every number of the clock and how they relate to our journey of life. In here the proximity of New Year is midway between Christmass and Epiphany. Also, the number 1 stands for something else which would make the shape of the number 4, 7, 11 and 12 also wrong.

Briefly (because I got kicked off the phone), the number one stands for man, singular and undivided but with a beginning and an end. Division occurs with the number two, and three. The lesser gods of power, wealth and beauty that make up the number four (4) are needed to exhaust our pursuit of happiness and take us through rebirth on the 25, through Epiphany where they are exchanged for faith hope and charity and so into the number 7 were we are once again like God and soon to come full circle in both minds for our second "go around" (8). We go through crucifixion (cf 6 and 9), annihilation at 10, walk with God at 11 and return to dust at 12.

Amos

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

offa

Offa, snipping;

smugg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, offa, sorry I asked.
Are the restaurants nice in your world?

By the way, I'd like to clear up a couple of things for you:
Bat Mitzvah is the coming of age ceremony for girls just like
the Bar Mitzvah is for boys. Also, twelve months equals one
year not twelve -- except in the lunar calendar used by the
ancient Hebrews (and others) which sometimes had thirteen.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Offa, yes, I especially enjoy the Old Gulf Inn for the special
and two beers.

I was unaware that Bat Mitzvah was a girl thing. My
interpretation of Begat is a person being recognized by
the father (like in priest and not like in biological daddy).
I think it rather curious that in Jubilees the girls
are begat whereas, in Genesis, they are not.
Two schools of thought?

At Qumran they were accused of sexual license (bat mitzvah?).

The lunar calendar was used after the Jews returned from their
captivity in Babylonia. The Jews that were prior to the Captivity
and The Jews (Samaritans) that were not captives continued with
the [B]Jubilee[B] calendar. This calendar had 12 months of
30 days with an extra day after (or before) every three months
giving a season of 91 days (divisible by 7). The year was 364
and, thus, 1 1/4 day short of a solar year. After 14 years
they added a 17 1/2 days (Veadar). The very first day began
on Saturday midnight (Evening),
however, when they added 17 1/2 days the year then began on
Wednesday at noon.

Thanks,
Offa

Duck!

What's it like on your planet, Amos?

It must be interesting, to say the least.

Duck!