Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ecco · 08-20-2001, 06:45 AM

What is the value of the Old Testament to Christianity? Aside from a few references to a “coming Messiah” it seems to me that the Old Testament has no relevance to Christianity. It was written a thousand years before Christ and has numerous references to a vengeful god. Can some Christians help me out on this.

hezekiah jones · 08-20-2001, 06:54 AM

Something about a talking snake and an easily beguiled female ...

tzaddick · 08-20-2001, 02:18 PM

The Old Testament has much value to Christians. I know many people who think that the Old Testament is outdated and God seems ruthless in the Old Testament. But through careful study and understanding of the Old Testament, you understand the New Testament much better.

Certainly, the significance lies heavily in favor of the coming Messiah and all the prophecies thereof. The prophecies regarding Christ begin in Genesis 3:15...

"From now on, you (Serpent/Satan) and the woman will be enemies, and your offspring and her offspring will be enemies. He will crush your head and you will strike his heel." New Living Translation

Satan struck Jesus at the heel by having Him crucified...not realizing that the crucifixation itself and the subsequent resurrection 3 days later would crush his head...meaning victory was sealed. Sin could never again separate man from God once we accept Christ as Lord and Savior. That's when Satan realizes that he has little time in Revelation 12:12, I believe.

But the Old Testament has it all...from Genesis...the beginning of creation, the beginning of man, the beginning of sin, the beginning of the nations.

Old Testament also has the Law...most frequently embodied to all in the Ten Commandmants. God's promise to Abraham that he would make his descendants a nation as numerous as the stars. Not only by blood, but by Spirit and Christians today fall into that family. God choose the Jews to help them spread the message and knowledge of Him to the pagan nations who constantly resisted. We see the Jews, once in the Promised Land, also begin to reject God and fall into some pagan practices and their subsequent judgement by God on that. We also see God forgive them countless times for their sins.

The Old Testament reveals what we think of as mighty Biblical figures and heroes e.g. Moses, Abraham, King David as mighty servants who also sinned and received forgiveness. It reveals that the salvation of the Jews and others wasn't based on the religious practices, but by their attitude toward the practices. Did they do it with faith...all of their hearts and trusting God...or did they do it as a ritual and social thing...as many people continue to do so today? We see that those in the Old Testament were saved by faith just as we are today. Before any rituals, Genesis records that "Abraham believed God" when God told him to leave his land and go to Canaan and God would make His descendants a mighty nation "and God reckoned it to him as righteousness." By faith...not by works was Abraham saved. By faith and not by works are we saved still today.

The Old Testament is the foundation for the New Testament and the foundation for Jesus Christ. The Old Testament reveals a just, loving and holy God...the same God we worship today. The Old Testment supports an unchanging God who throughout the years has not changed His love for us and always had a plan to save us by faith.

Caley · 08-20-2001, 03:05 PM

Yes, the Old Testament IS bloody and callous, and I can not see how it can even be in the same book as the New, which is more subtle. Your exception of this fact as relevant hurts your statement. Although to a Christian, the Old may add value to the New, it is difficult for me to see this.

I like where Moses comes down first with the 9 commandments, minus "No Gods Before Me", but still with "Thou shalt not kill." Then he sees the people worshipping the idol, and has them killed. Hmmm.......

emotional · 08-20-2001, 04:45 PM

The Old Testament is needed in order to be able to fuse the pagan risen-reborn-resurrected Saviour myth (the Mithra/Attis etc story) with Jewish monotheism. And without an Old Testament, you couldn't call the Christian stuff the New Testament, of course.

BTW, Jews never call it the Old Testament, because that implies the existence of a New Testament (which is prophesied in Jeremiah, right, but hasn't yet arrived according to Orthodox Judaism; Jesus is a false messiah). When a Jew says "Bible" he means only the Hebrew scriptures, from Genesis to Chronicles, the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim). To refer to the Christian Bible, a Jew would say, "Tanakh u-vrit hadashah", meaning "Bible and New Testament". This could be confusing.

critical thinking made ez · 08-20-2001, 05:37 PM

Devnet called this one correct. There are 2 different God Entity's that are referred to. There is the Lower God of the Old Testament and the Higher God of the New Testament. Most Christians (Catholic and Protestant) have no idea who they are worshiping. They just believe what the Catholic Church "setup" for them century’s ago.

[ August 20, 2001: Message edited by: critical thinking made ez ]

Kosh · 08-20-2001, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tzaddick:
<STRONG> The prophecies regarding Christ begin in Genesis 3:15...

"From now on, you (Serpent/Satan) and the woman will be enemies, and your offspring and her offspring will be enemies. He will crush your head and you will strike his heel." New Living Translation</STRONG>

This is yet another pathetic attempt of
apologists to squeeze a non-existant "prophecy" out of the O.T. A simple statement
attempting to explain why snakes are the
way they are (we step on their heads to
kill them, they strike at our heels because
it's easiest to reach) is twisted into a
metaphorical statement about Jesus.

There is no God, and now we have proof,
the Packers have just scored and took the
lead over the Broncos...

ecco · 08-21-2001, 01:12 PM

Thank you all for the feedback, it's greatly appreciated.

ecco

Vorkosigan · 08-21-2001, 01:43 PM

here's another purpose:

Under Roman law, and in Roman eyes, ancient religious had certain privileges, and all "new" religions were considered heretical, or at least unprivileged. By co-opting the OT, Christians could show that really, they were an old religion, not a new one, and thus deflect Roman contempt, and perhaps Roman persecution.

Michael

jess · 08-21-2001, 02:54 PM

Michael is right---

The romans saw the Christians as a subsect of the Jews, and afforded them legal protection under romans until they broke with the jews until 313 CE. I don't know when they officially 'broke', but the henotheism of the Jews (they only worshipped one god, they didn't exactly deny the roman gods) was legal, the monotheism/only way to salvation of the Christians is what made the Romans mad at them.

08-20-2001, 06:45 AM	#1
ecco Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: SE Posts: 4,845	Value of Old Testament to Christianity What is the value of the Old Testament to Christianity? Aside from a few references to a “coming Messiah” it seems to me that the Old Testament has no relevance to Christianity. It was written a thousand years before Christ and has numerous references to a vengeful god. Can some Christians help me out on this.

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08-20-2001, 06:54 AM	#2
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Something about a talking snake and an easily beguiled female ...

08-20-2001, 02:18 PM	#3
tzaddick Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: California Posts: 76	The Old Testament has much value to Christians. I know many people who think that the Old Testament is outdated and God seems ruthless in the Old Testament. But through careful study and understanding of the Old Testament, you understand the New Testament much better. Certainly, the significance lies heavily in favor of the coming Messiah and all the prophecies thereof. The prophecies regarding Christ begin in Genesis 3:15... "From now on, you (Serpent/Satan) and the woman will be enemies, and your offspring and her offspring will be enemies. He will crush your head and you will strike his heel." New Living Translation Satan struck Jesus at the heel by having Him crucified...not realizing that the crucifixation itself and the subsequent resurrection 3 days later would crush his head...meaning victory was sealed. Sin could never again separate man from God once we accept Christ as Lord and Savior. That's when Satan realizes that he has little time in Revelation 12:12, I believe. But the Old Testament has it all...from Genesis...the beginning of creation, the beginning of man, the beginning of sin, the beginning of the nations. Old Testament also has the Law...most frequently embodied to all in the Ten Commandmants. God's promise to Abraham that he would make his descendants a nation as numerous as the stars. Not only by blood, but by Spirit and Christians today fall into that family. God choose the Jews to help them spread the message and knowledge of Him to the pagan nations who constantly resisted. We see the Jews, once in the Promised Land, also begin to reject God and fall into some pagan practices and their subsequent judgement by God on that. We also see God forgive them countless times for their sins. The Old Testament reveals what we think of as mighty Biblical figures and heroes e.g. Moses, Abraham, King David as mighty servants who also sinned and received forgiveness. It reveals that the salvation of the Jews and others wasn't based on the religious practices, but by their attitude toward the practices. Did they do it with faith...all of their hearts and trusting God...or did they do it as a ritual and social thing...as many people continue to do so today? We see that those in the Old Testament were saved by faith just as we are today. Before any rituals, Genesis records that "Abraham believed God" when God told him to leave his land and go to Canaan and God would make His descendants a mighty nation "and God reckoned it to him as righteousness." By faith...not by works was Abraham saved. By faith and not by works are we saved still today. The Old Testament is the foundation for the New Testament and the foundation for Jesus Christ. The Old Testament reveals a just, loving and holy God...the same God we worship today. The Old Testment supports an unchanging God who throughout the years has not changed His love for us and always had a plan to save us by faith.

08-20-2001, 03:05 PM	#4
Caley Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Santee, CA, USA Posts: 452	Yes, the Old Testament IS bloody and callous, and I can not see how it can even be in the same book as the New, which is more subtle. Your exception of this fact as relevant hurts your statement. Although to a Christian, the Old may add value to the New, it is difficult for me to see this. I like where Moses comes down first with the 9 commandments, minus "No Gods Before Me", but still with "Thou shalt not kill." Then he sees the people worshipping the idol, and has them killed. Hmmm.......

08-20-2001, 04:45 PM	#5
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	The Old Testament is needed in order to be able to fuse the pagan risen-reborn-resurrected Saviour myth (the Mithra/Attis etc story) with Jewish monotheism. And without an Old Testament, you couldn't call the Christian stuff the New Testament, of course. BTW, Jews never call it the Old Testament, because that implies the existence of a New Testament (which is prophesied in Jeremiah, right, but hasn't yet arrived according to Orthodox Judaism; Jesus is a false messiah). When a Jew says "Bible" he means only the Hebrew scriptures, from Genesis to Chronicles, the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim). To refer to the Christian Bible, a Jew would say, "Tanakh u-vrit hadashah", meaning "Bible and New Testament". This could be confusing.

08-20-2001, 05:37 PM	#6
critical thinking made ez Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: San Antonio TX Posts: 536	Devnet called this one correct. There are 2 different God Entity's that are referred to. There is the Lower God of the Old Testament and the Higher God of the New Testament. Most Christians (Catholic and Protestant) have no idea who they are worshiping. They just believe what the Catholic Church "setup" for them century’s ago. [ August 20, 2001: Message edited by: critical thinking made ez ]

08-21-2001, 01:12 PM	#8
ecco Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: SE Posts: 4,845	Thank you all for the feedback, it's greatly appreciated. ecco

08-21-2001, 01:43 PM	#9
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	here's another purpose: Under Roman law, and in Roman eyes, ancient religious had certain privileges, and all "new" religions were considered heretical, or at least unprivileged. By co-opting the OT, Christians could show that really, they were an old religion, not a new one, and thus deflect Roman contempt, and perhaps Roman persecution. Michael

08-21-2001, 02:54 PM	#10
jess Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: rationalpagans.com Posts: 7,400	Michael is right--- The romans saw the Christians as a subsect of the Jews, and afforded them legal protection under romans until they broke with the jews until 313 CE. I don't know when they officially 'broke', but the henotheism of the Jews (they only worshipped one god, they didn't exactly deny the roman gods) was legal, the monotheism/only way to salvation of the Christians is what made the Romans mad at them.

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