Thomas Paine have pointed out that this would mean that John the Baptist would have been killed, since he supposedly where about Jesus age.

Actually I have not analysed this myself, have any one looked in to it?

Occ.

offa,

Here is a verse from Flavius Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews.
book 17, verse 157: so he caught no fewer than forty of the young
men, who had courage to stay behind when the rest ran away, together
with the authors of this bold action, Judas and Matthias, who thought
it an ignominious thing to retire upon this approach, and led them to
the king.

These young men were caught in an act of vandalism and were tried
and put to death. In the ancient language a "young man" was also
called a "Child". This event occurred near to the Spring Equinox
in 4 b.c.e. and king Herod was within a few weeks of his death.
John the Baptist and Jesus were infants, John was three and
Jesus was two. These infants will not become Children until they
celebrate their Bar Mitzvah and Jesus' Bar Mitzvah will occur
in 6 c.e. during the same year that Augustus Caesar orders a
census. The term "All" originally stood for a sect of Jews.

The above event is the story behind Matthew's gospel. Apparently
Jesus' father, i.e., the holy spirit, Cleophas, Joseph etc. was
involved and he was one of the young men who was not captured.

BTW, The motto, "All Men are Created Equal" means just exactly that
and does not include women or colored people.


Genesis 05:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred
sixty and nine years: and he died.

Methuselah days were counted after his Bar Mitzvah and he was
born twelve years previous. Likewise, Adam was not born in
year one, he was Begat (Bar Mitzvah) in year 49 and was born in
year 37 which is during the 6th day of the first Jubilee.


offa

Hate to break it to you: Josephus is not the most reliable historian we have available to us.

You seem very sure of your dates. I'd ask for some corroborating evidence, but I'm sure I'd just have to hear more about your Bible code fairy tale. To state flatly that 'the word "all" originally stood for a sect of Jews' is a pretty good example of how prone you are to generalization and jumping to conclusions. In Genesis 2:20 Adam 'gave names to all cattle,' does this mean he only gave names to just one sect's cattle?

a.) There is no such thing as the holy spirit. It's a myth.

b.) You are very fond of this theory of Joseph and Cleophas being the same man, but I'd like to see some evidence backing this up (but only if you can do it without using the word pesher).

c.) I don't suppose you have any evidence that shows Joseph was involved in the incident, either.

Yes, very clever, thanks. Did you just figure this out?

Methuselah is another mythological figure - he may be based on some important folk hero, but he did not live as long as you think because no human being lives that long.

Begat, by the way, does not mean bar mitzvah. It means to sire. When Genesis 5:21 says Enoch 'begat' Methuselah, it means he fathered Methuselah.

Really - I don't know what makes you think you can decipher this fictitious language of yours if you can't even read English...

Offa is just a conspiracy nut, joust with him at your own peril.

Otherwise, that is an excellent point you'd made; I've never thought of it before!

smugg to offa;
Hate to break it to you: Josephus is not the most reliable
historian we have available to us.

offa, "Josephus writes in a style I call pesher. He is useless to
fundies because they fundies drink "milk" and do not eat 'meat'.
Milk is for the 'babes of Christ' and Meat is for those that
sell the Milk."

offa, "Can you give me a reliable historian from a thousand years
or so in the past?"

smugg to offa;
You seem very sure of your dates. I'd ask for some corroborating
evidence, but I'm sure I'd just have to hear more about your Bible
code fairy tale.

offa, "The dates are given in WORKS (ISBN 0-913573-86-8). St. Matthew
states that the children were alive before king Herod died. King
Herod died in 4 b.c.e. St. Luke says that Mary was big with
Child during Augustus' census. This census took place in 6 c.e.
according to Josephus (ISBN 0-913573-86-8). About my bible code
fairy tale, I read in pesher, like, for instance, if Mary was a
virgin and virgin means not having sexual intercourse, then find
me a virgin in our bible that was not a Hebrew. If Jesus was unable
to walk after the crucifixion, show me in the bible where it says
his feet were pierced and then I will believe. There is no code."

smugg to offa;
"To state flatly that 'the word "all" originally stood for a sect of
Jews' is a pretty good example of how prone you are to
generalization and jumping to conclusions. In Genesis 2:20 Adam
'gave names to all cattle,' does this mean he only gave names to
just one sect's cattle?"

offa, "I will even go one better than that, the cattle were not
bovine, they were women."

smugg to offa;
"There is no such thing as the holy spirit. It's a myth."

offa, "Now you are cooking meat."


smugg to offa;
"You are very fond of this theory of Joseph and Cleophas being the
same man, but I'd like to see some evidence backing this up (but
only if you can do it without using the word pesher)."

offa, "The book of John, excepting the last chapter, was written
before St. Paul discovered that Jesus was actually alive. A secret
is told that they were two women under the cross and St. Paul got
on the bandwagon with St. Matthew, St. Peter, and Luke and they were
determined to squelch the truth. That is why the last chapter of
the book of John was added by another John after the other three
gospels were written. I drew my conclusion about Clopas from
reading Eusebius, book 3 (this book can be found on yahoo.com)."

smugg to offa;
"I don't suppose you have any evidence that shows Joseph was
involved in the incident, either."

offa, "My only evidence is that Joseph would be the right age
and that he was a member of the ALL. St. Matthew said that
Joseph went into hiding after the incident and remained secluded
until Herod died a short time later."

smugg to offa;
"All Men are Created Equal" means just exactly that and does not
include women or colored people. Yes, very clever, thanks. Did you
just figure this out?"

offa, "I was using an example for using 'All' in a pesher sense.
Now, since negroes were slaves and a civil rights movement was
necessary in order for them to ride buses then they did not fall
under the category of 'All'. Women were not allowed to vote until
late last century so they were not created equal."


smugg to offa;
"Methuselah is another mythological figure - he may be based on
some important folk hero, but he did not live as long as you think
because no human being lives that long."

offa, "Sounds like meat to me! BTW, here is a quote from Josephus,
page 33. 01-088 These years, collected together, make up the
sum before set down; but let no one inquire into the deaths of
these men, for they extended their lives along together with their
children and grandchildren; but let him have regard to their births
only. Josephus is telling those that want to learn pesher that
they did not really live that long. But if you use the birth's to
establish a chronology the outcome is quite interesting. I did so
myself. Try it."


smugg to offa;
"Begat, by the way, does not mean <I> bar mitzvah</I>. It means to
sire. When Genesis 5:21 says Enoch 'begat' Methuselah, it means he
fathered Methuselah."

offa, "yep, you are correct. It says so in the dictionary. But does
it say "natural father". If your were a minister of a church and a
woman 'bore' (brought her twelve year-old) to the church and said,
o.k., 'he's all yours, train him well'. That young man becomes a
member of your flock ... would that qualify as <I>fathering</I>?"


smugg to offa;
"Really - I don't know what makes you think you can decipher this
fictitious language of yours if you can't even read English..."

offa, If I cannot read English, then, what language are you writing
in. If it is English then you must be wasting your time.

thanks, offa
I can only rely on the KJ version of the bible. I do not read Latin, Greek, or Hebrew. I write what I believe and my resources are limited. I am an atheist through no choice of my own.

Theophage, thanks - I visited his webpage before I posted that and thought about leaving offa alone but I was feeling argumenative (and still am, as you'll see).

Which point are you referring to?

Probably not, but there are plenty of excellent historians (and linguists) alive today. It's worth noting that Joseph ben Matthias, or Flavius Josephus, was a man of mixed loyalty. He fought against the Romans for a while then betrayed Israel by going over to Rome. He seems to by the only source you're interested in besides the Bible, but he may have had (probably did have) his own agenda.

As a lark, try reading Don't Know Much About the Bible by Kenneth C. Davis. It's an excellent read.

The author of Matthew's account directly conflicts with the author of Luke's by saying that Jesus was born in the days of Herod. Couldn't it just be that they had heard different story? There is, by the way, no evidence of any mass children murder going on in Herod's day - don't you think it's possible that they were trying to make Jesus' story sound more like Moses (who's story, in turn, was borrowed from Sargon of Akkadia)?

Another interesting theory I've heard is that the story of the slaughter of the innocents is a telescoping of Herod's murder of his Maccabbean children. You see, Herod married a Maccabbean princess to win over the Jewish people when he first came to power. He had two sons by her and when they got older he realized that they were more popular among the Jewish nationals (since he was Idumean) than he was. He had them both strangled and he eventually killed his wife, as well.

Non sequitur - show me in the Bible where it says Jesus breathed Oxygen and not Fluorine and I'll believe he could talk.

Thank you for proving my point.

Did you know that there are no 'original' Gospels? The four books we call the Gospels were oral tradition and second- or third-hand manuscripts until well after 100 C.E. when they were collected, edited, and probably condensed by the 'Early Church.' I guess what I'm saying is that I doubt the authorship of these works (as I doubt that Jesus, if he existed at all, survived the crucifixion).

As for Eusebius, here's a quote from Book Three, Chapter Eleven of his Ecclesiastical History:

Seems pretty clear to me. Clopas was Jesus' uncle and Symeon (Simeon) his cousin.

You realize, don't you, that Josephus didn't know English? He claims to have written his History of the Jewish War and The Jewish Antiquities first in Aramaic then translated them to Greek. Could he really have been trying to teach you a fourth language from his thrice translated works?

Er - yes, begat does have a pretty clear connotation of "natural father." The Hebrew people do not, traditionally, trace their ancestory through the rabbi present at their coming of age ceremony. Even if they did, how ridiculous is it to assume that every one of the patriarchs was a minister of their own church?

First, here is an excellent site for comparing different (English) versions of the Bible:

The Bible Gateway

I think you should learn another language if you're really interested in making one of your own.

And lastly, I'm sorry to hear you're being forced to be an atheist. Tell your captors that smugg, another atheist, says foced conversions are wrong and that they should be ashamed of themselves. The good news is that it doesn't seem to be working since I haven't seen any signs that you don't believe in God.

Offa, "Look, Smugg ...I am what I am! I do not remember exactly what I have
put on the web-page. I will check it out in a couple of days and
add or subtract a little. I would really like some constructive
criticism, I mean, who else do you know that practices 'pesher'?

I do not mind being an atheist. I have no choice. If I was in a
god-fearing society, nobody would ask me if I believed in God,
because, it would be redundant. I know that the Jewish God was
human. God is dead, long live God. The King is dead, long live the
king. The Pope is dead, long live the Pope. The title never dies.

Josephus tells you several times over that the first twelve years
of a Jew (his sect) are not counted. Matthew, Luke, St. Paul,
St. Peter, and the last king off the Jews, Agrippa I knew Jesus
personally. Also, the Figtree (Antipas) knew him and Jesus rejected
him.

BTW, My favorite biblical source is The Book of Jubilees.

Josephus is my favorite teacher simply because,
to my chagrin, I read damn near his whole book
before I realized he was teaching a new language
and now, I should read the whole damned thing over
again!

About Eusebius, thanks for responding. I hope you
used my tip on how to find him. More than likely
you already knew all about him. He incorrectly
depicts Clopas as Jesus' uncle, but, the funny
thing is two of Clopas' children (the only ones
mentioned) have the same names as two of
Jesus' brothers. You can also find the Clementine
Homilies and the Recognitions of Clement on
Yahoo. Through them you can figure that Simon
Magus and Lazarus were the same person and that
Martha was the mother of the sons of Zebedee (Magus),
even though, she was really their instructor and
not their mother.

I would rather discuss one topic at a time than
being flooded. I mean, we are hogging someone else's
site. BTW, did you know that Mount Sinai and Mount
Gerizum was the same mountain? and this location was
also Nod? and it was about ten miles from Jerusalem.

Whew; you're really all over the place, offa. Two things I would ask of you:
[list=a][*]Evidence - find (and maybe provide for me) facts which back your ideas.[*]Logic - try to follow the chain of events or thoughts which brought you to your conclusions. Most of your claims seem to be non sequiturs to me.[/list=a]

About pesher: I could claim to read works in my own language as well and interpret them however I wanted. What makes your method correct?

[This message has been edited by smugg (edited December 31, 2000).]

Sorry to go back to the orginal post

Where does Paine rise this question? Would it also apply to other figures in the period of Jesus' ministry? The ages of the disciples are not given but since many are from the same area &/or related this is a line of questioning I have never considered.


[This message has been edited by Justus (edited December 31, 2000).]

Hey, offa, how are you being forced into being an Atheist? You're not exactly living in China.