uncle_onion

In the book of Matthew, the writer says that Jesus fulfilled certain "prophecies" in book sthat were wriiten before Jesus's time. Also (I am not an authority on the subject) the jews were "expecting" a messiah due to the "70 weeks prophecy"? If Jesus was a fictional character of was really a man but not the son of God, how does this all fit in? This is the only thing that is stopping me dismiss the Bible full stop!

UO

Pitshade

Matthew's 'prophecies' are fragments of verses which were taken out of their original context. A great deal has been said about the Isaiah 7:14-Matt 1:23 controversy, and how the Hebrew word translated as 'virgin' means 'young woman.' I don't know anything about ancient Hebrew, so I'll leave that one alone.

My favorite though, is Matt.2:15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

This comes from Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

The very next verse (Hosea 11:2) says The more I called them, the more they went from me; they kept sacrificing to the Ba'als, and burning incense to idols.

Compare that to Exod.4:22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, `Thus says the LORD, Israel is my first-born son,

The word son in Matthew refers to Israel as a nation being called out of Egypt. Matthew takes it out of context to refer to Jesus, but if that were true, Jesus would have had to also fulfilled the second verse, saying that he "kept sacrificing to the Ba'als, and burning incense to idols!"

ex-preacher

The seventy weeks prophecy has been interpreted many different ways, depending on what the individual doing the interpreting wanted to prove. I think the best explanation for the seventy weeks is that the author of Daniel, writing in about 165 BCE, was looking back to the time of 552 BC. He was trying to show that the predictions about Antiochus Epiphanes were being fulfilled in his own time.

From the Oxford Annotated Bible: The anointed prince of Dan 9:25 is probably Zerubabbel or Joshua (Ezra 3:2). The one cut off is Onias III. The prince who is to come is Antiochus.

I believe you can find more in-depth articles on the 70 weeeks in the Sec Web library. I would imagine that Farrell Till has written articles on it.

The evidence that Daniel was written in about 165 BCE is quite convincing. The reason: He is foggy or downright wrong about facts in the supposed time of Daniel. He makes incredibly accurate prophecies of what would happen down to about 165 (Dan 11:1-39), then he gets everything wrong (Dan 11:40-12:13).

Vorkosigan

Till has been arguing for the last two years on the book of Daniel. Fun reading, if you link watching inerrantists get trashed. However, that is sort of like shooting whales in a swimming pool.

The Skeptical Review, Till's mag, can be found under Till in the Modern Author Index in the Infidels Library.

Michael

Ulrich

Also, the author of Matthew is writing about Jesus decades after he supposedly lived, after the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans. It would be very easy for the author to fictionalize certain events in the life of Jesus to correspond with the prophecies. After all Jesus wouldn't have been around to contradict him, and a good portion of the population was illiterate. It would be even easier to make these events up if Jesus never lived in the first place. You seem to give a lot of creedence to an author whom we know absolutely nothing about, and who was writing in a superstitous culture thousands of years ago. I see absolutely no reason to elevate the gospel authors to the rank of absolute believability, especially given the discrepencies within their own works.

ex-preacher

Here's what they have to say about this over at the www.jewsforjudaism.org site

Question: Is it true that sixty-nine "weeks" of the Seventy Weeks countdown of Daniel 9 starts in 444 B.C.E. and ends with the death of Jesus (30/33 C.E.)?

Answer: Christian commentators prefer to start the Seventy Weeks countdown with 444 or 445 B.C.E. because it brings their calculations closer to the time period in which Jesus died (30/33 C.E.). A far better starting date is the decree of Cyrus (537 B.C.E) upon which all subsequent grants of approval were based (Isaiah 44:28). A correct reading of the passage and some simple arithmetic dispels any attempt to claim 444 B.C.E. as a starting date and Jesus' death in 30/33 C.E. as a terminus.

First, the seven weeks and the sixty-two weeks are really two separate periods and speak of two separate "anointed" ones. Second, even if we were to count 483 years from 444 B.C.E. we get to the year 38 C.E. Jesus is crucified in the period ranging from 30 to 33 C.E. But, the text of Daniel 9:26 says, "And after the sixty-two weeks an anointed one shall be cut off." This shows that if we use 444 B.C.E. as a starting date the alleged second "anointed one" was "cut off" in the period following the year 38 C.E. (that is, "after the sixty-two weeks"). There would be no connection to anyone "cut off" prior to that year. Thus, there is no reference here to Jesus.

uncle_onion

"The evidence that Daniel was written in about 165 BCE is quite convincing. The reason: He is foggy or downright wrong about facts in the supposed time of Daniel. He makes incredibly accurate prophecies of what would happen down to about 165 (Dan 11:1-39), then he gets everything wrong (Dan 11:40-12:13)."

Tell me more!

UO

uncle_onion

I have read the above comments and have done something that I have not done for a long time.... and that is pull out my JW books and see what they have to say about the subject.There seems to be a big difference between dates etc.

Here goes:

*** it-2 900-2 Seventy Weeks ***
Messiah’s Arrival After ‘Sixty-Nine Weeks.’ As to the following “sixty-two weeks” (Da 9:25), these, being part of the 70 and named second in order, would continue from the conclusion of the “seven weeks.” Therefore, the time “from the going forth of the word” to rebuild Jerusalem until “Messiah the Leader” would be 7 plus 62 “weeks,” or 69 “weeks”—483 years—from the year 455 B.C.E. to 29 C.E. As mentioned above, in the autumn of that year, 29 C.E., Jesus was baptized in water, was anointed with holy spirit, and began his ministry as “Messiah the Leader.”—Lu 3:1, 2, 21, 22.
Thus, centuries in advance Daniel’s prophecy pinpointed the exact year of the Messiah’s arrival. Perhaps the Jews in the first century C.E. had made calculations on the basis of Daniel’s prophecy and were therefore on the alert for Messiah’s appearance. The Bible reports: “Now as the people were in expectation and all were reasoning in their hearts about John: ‘May he perhaps be the Christ?’” (Lu 3:15) Although they were expecting the Messiah, they evidently could not pinpoint the exact month, week, or day of his arrival. Therefore, they wondered whether John was the Christ, even though John evidently began his ministry in the spring of 29 C.E., about six months before Jesus presented himself for baptism.
“Cut off” at the half of the week. Gabriel further said to Daniel: “After the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.” (Da 9:26) It was sometime after the end of the ‘seven plus sixty-two weeks,’ actually about three and a half years afterward, that Christ was cut off in death on a torture stake, giving up all that he had, as a ransom for mankind. (Isa 53:8) Evidence indicates that the first half of the “week” was spent by Jesus in the ministry. On one occasion, likely in the fall of 32 C.E., he gave an illustration, apparently speaking of the Jewish nation as a fig tree (compare Mt 17:15-20; 21:18, 19, 43) that had borne no fruit for “three years.” The vinedresser said to the owner of the vineyard: “Master, let it alone also this year, until I dig around it and put on manure; and if then it produces fruit in the future, well and good; but if not, you shall cut it down.” (Lu 13:6-9) He may have referred here to the time period of his own ministry to that unresponsive nation, which ministry had continued at that point for about three years and was to continue into a fourth year.
Covenant in force “for one week.” Daniel 9:27 states: “And he must keep the covenant in force for the many for one week [or seven years]; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.” The “covenant” could not be the Law covenant, for Christ’s sacrifice, three and a half years after the 70th “week” began, resulted in its removal by God: “He has taken it [the Law] out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.” (Col 2:14) Also, “Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law . . . The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham might come to be by means of Jesus Christ for the nations.” (Ga 3:13, 14) God, through Christ, did extend the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant to the natural offspring of Abraham, excluding the Gentiles until the gospel was taken to them through Peter’s preaching to the Italian Cornelius. (Ac 3:25, 26; 10:1-48) This conversion of Cornelius and his household occurred after the conversion of Saul of Tarsus, which is generally considered to have taken place in about 34 C.E.; after this the congregation enjoyed a period of peace, being built up. (Ac 9:1-16, 31) It appears, then, that the bringing of Cornelius into the Christian congregation took place about the autumn of 36 C.E., which would be the end of the 70th “week,” 490 years from 455 B.C.E.
Sacrifices and offerings ‘caused to cease.’ The expression ‘cause to cease,’ used with reference to sacrifice and gift offering, means, literally, “cause or make to sabbath, to rest, to desist from working.” The “sacrifice and gift offering” that are ‘caused to cease,’ according to Daniel 9:27, could not be Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, nor would they logically be any spiritual sacrifice by his footstep followers. They must refer to the sacrifices and gift offerings that were offered by the Jews at the temple in Jerusalem according to Moses’ Law.
“The half of the week” would be at the middle of seven years, or after three and a half years within that “week” of years. Since the 70th “week” began about the fall of 29 C.E. at Jesus’ baptism and anointing to be Christ, half of that week (three and a half years) would extend to the spring of 33 C.E., or Passover time (Nisan 14) of that year. This day appears to have been April 1, 33 C.E., according to the Gregorian calendar. (See LORD’S EVENING MEAL [Time of Its Institution].) The apostle Paul tells us that Jesus ‘came to do the will of God,’ which was to ‘do away with what is first [the sacrifices and offerings according to the Law] that he may establish what is second.’ This he did by offering as a sacrifice his own body.—Heb 10:1-10.
Although the Jewish priests continued to offer sacrifices at the temple in Jerusalem until its destruction in 70 C.E., the sacrifices for sin ceased having acceptance and validity with God. Just before Jesus’ death he said to Jerusalem: “Your house is abandoned to you.” (Mt 23:38) Christ “offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually . . . For it is by one sacrificial offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect perpetually.” “Now where there is forgiveness [of sins and lawless deeds], there is no longer an offering for sin.” (Heb 10:12-14, 18) The apostle Paul points out that Jeremiah’s prophecy spoke of a new covenant, the former covenant (Law covenant) being thereby made obsolete and growing old, “near to vanishing away.”—Heb 8:7-13.

Lance

If you want to see how Christians twist things, take a look at a devastating analysis of Isaiah 9.6 done by a native Hebrew speaker.

nopc.antares-dev.com/isaiahproblems.htm

uncle_onion

I have had a quick look at that link. But the same question keeps coming back to me: If the Bible is not the word of God, Then how come these prohecies(whatever they mean) are in it?

UO

Any comments anyone on the stuff I posted from the JW book?