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09-14-2001, 01:09 AM | #1 |
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Liberal Christians - does Satan literally exist?
(To Nomad and other liberal Christians):
If some events in the Bible (such as in early Genesis) are actually just metaphors and not literal accounts as fundamentalists believe, what about Satan? e.g. what about when we say how "Mother Nature" is being hurt by our pollution, or "Lady Luck" is on our side? Perhaps the concept of "Satan" is the same. It could be temptation metaphorically personified. So is there a supernatural person called Satan who can simultaneously tempt many people all over the world? Or do these temptations just come from natural human nature, and Satan is just a metaphorical source of it? e.g. These days we might say someone opened Pandora's box, even though Pandora doesn't literally exist, etc. And when Satan is locked up forever in Revelations, maybe it means that when people reach a heavenly state of mind, temptation ("Satan") leaves them. BTW, I think it isn't necessary to believe in a literal Satan to have the Gospel message. The fall, which you already say is a metaphorical story, could involve internal temptations (no third party involved) which sets a precedent for our sinful human nature, and then the gospel is really about surrending to God and being forgiven for your sins. I could argue that it isn't necessary to believe in a literal Jesus or even a literal God if you look at it in a very liberal/metaphorical though still "spiritual" way. If you believe that Satan is a literal person, could you try and prove why references to Satan are definitely not a metaphor for temptation/sin/evil. |
09-14-2001, 03:22 PM | #2 | |||||||||
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I am an orthodox Christian, and will defend that theology. Quote:
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Here you are asking a question related more to the nature of Heaven and Hell, and as I have said in other threads, I accept that both exist. But Satan will not be a tormentor in Hell, he will be among the tormented. And yes, those in Heaven will be eternally seperated from Satan and all of the damned, but this will not be the reason the righteous will no longer sin. The righteous will have been purified by God, and made perfect, so the desire and attraction of being imperfect will be gone forever. Even if Satan were somehow to enter Heaven, his power would be gone, as the righteous will live as one with God Himself, and will therefore bear His holy and perfect nature. In other words, we will no longer be the image of God. We will be His true sons and daughters, and will be perfect. Quote:
As for the Gospel message, it is not so much about obedience to God (although that is a part of it), as it is the good news message that God has literally saved every single person who has and ever will live. Our sins are completely paid for, and we have no reason to be in bondage to them any longer. That is why it is called the Gospel, the Good News. Quote:
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Peace, Nomad |
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09-14-2001, 09:38 PM | #3 | |||||||
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"But the basic rule of treating those things which are essential for salvation as being literal, and all else may be viewed as figurative seems reasonable." I think that traditionally this would be seen by orthodox churches as being heretical. I mean perhaps belief in a Virgin birth or Jesus's miracles isn't essential for salvation and therefore that could be taken as figurative. Perhaps this view is common, but I wouldn't call it "orthodox". Quote:
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.... (I'm not going to respond to that bit) .... Quote:
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09-17-2001, 04:41 AM | #4 | |
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Well I checked out what religioustolerance.org, one of my favourite sites, had to say. (It is a very good reference for unbiassed religious information)
from Satan: Overview; Bible passages; Current beliefs: Quote:
Part 2: The development of the concept of Satan which talks about the history of the Satan character. Demonic Possession, Demonic Oppression, and Exorcism contains an interesting guide for distinguishing between schizophrenia and (apparent) demon possession. So Nomad, it seems that a majority of Christians and a majority of ministers doubt the literal existence of Satan. Only 21% of your flavour of Christianity (also formerly my own brand of faith, as well as all of my relatives), the Lutheran denomination, believes in a literal Satan. Differences Between Roman Catholicism and Conservative Protestantism says conservative protestants generally believe that truth is found in scripture, as interpreted by the individual. It is the Roman Catholic Church who believes that truth is found in scripture, as interpreted by the church and is also found in church tradition. So are a majority of Christians and church leaders wrong? Or perhaps you are among the elite few who can correctly interpret the scriptures. [ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: JohnClay ] |
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09-17-2001, 09:18 AM | #5 | |||||||||||||||
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The core beliefs of the Nicene Creed, for example, represent what all Christians have taught from the beginning of the Church. They are rooted in the Bible and Tradition, and have helped us to identify who is within the faith, and who is not. Quote:
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Nomad |
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09-17-2001, 12:53 PM | #6 |
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Dear Nomad--
Careful readers of the Bible will see that the figure of Satan has not always been "the tempter" or the direct enemy of man but has also been a sort of advocate and counselor. If we look beyond the conventional wisdom of the Bible found in books like Proverbs and pay attention to the subversive wisdom of a book such as Job we will find a more complex image of the devil. Thomas Mann once wrote that once you believe in the literal devil, you then belong to him. In my experience that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy among many Christian believers. It is a child's view of reality, but like Paul I believe we need to get beyond childish things. It would be so easy if we could all say that over here is good and over there is evil. But that line between good and evil goes down the center of every human heart, as Alexander Solzhenitsyn said. And who is willing to cut off a piece of their own heart? Jesus said to love one's enemies and that God causes the sun to shine on the evil and the good and sends the rain to fall on both the just and the unjust. He either said this or he didn't-- and as Chirstians, we cannot have it both ways. We have numbed ourselves from the original shock value of the Parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke because we now see it as a story of how to be a good neighbor. It could easily be retold today to be the Parable of the Good Terrorist. The Samaritans were seen as an outcast, bastard race. Jesus' first-century listeners could no more imagine a Samaritan as "good" any more than they could imagine loving their enemies. Marginalizing evil in the world to the form of a devil or to hell is a long way from taking up a cross and following Jesus. It is certainly a way of coping. Or of feeling comfortable. Or pious. I can certainly understand that need because I feel it myself from time to time. It is no accident that Jesus and Socrates, the two most well-known Western voices of philosophy and religion, were found threatening, offensive and subversive enough to both be put to death. And if I may use a metaphor, Satan's pain is that he is hidden from God. |
09-17-2001, 01:23 PM | #7 | ||||||||
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I do not know if or why you believe Jesus died, but in Christian orthodoxy, He died for our sins, and rose for our salvation. Quote:
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Luke 10:29, 36-37 But he (the expert in the law) wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise." As I said, everyone appears to have gotten the message, including the expert in the law. Yes the Samaritans were dispised, but this served only to make the message of the parable that much more powerful. After all, it was the priest and the Levite who were the real evil ones in this particular parable. No doubt the message was very shocking, but it did get through to the audience. Quote:
What is your point here exactly aikido? That believing that Satan exists marginalizes evil? If so, I will assure you that Christianity takes evil very seriously. After all, it is only the existence of real sin and evil that could have required the death of our own God on the cross. Even if Satan never existed, we do appear to be a sinful and rebellious race. At the same time, our sinfulness does not require that we deny the truth and say that Satan does not exist. Both sin and Satan can exist together. Nomad |
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09-17-2001, 04:18 PM | #8 |
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Nomad:
Those creeds say nothing about the existence of Satan and devils, or that hell involves eternal torture. So is St. Augustine your source of truth? Did he insist that Satan *must* be a literal person and that hell *must* involve eternal torture? If not, are you more knowledgeable about the truth that St. Augustine was? I'll probably read about him sometime... Also, could you respond to what I wrote about some surveys involving Satan? It seems that you are in a minority who believe that Satan is a literal person. |
09-18-2001, 09:56 PM | #9 | |||||
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As I have said before, people can believe what they wish. My purpose on these boards is simply to defend orthodox Christianity, and to answer questions about it. Nomad [ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: Nomad ] |
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09-18-2001, 10:52 PM | #10 | |
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The concept of evil (whether or not one believes this adjective is ultimately embodied in a "real person" called the Devil)is handily localized in this "real person" rather than handily localized by dogmatic lip-service within a believer's heart. It is one thing to say man is sinful and quite another to assert he is demonic. Attributing acts of evil to a "real person" known as "the Devil" makes our work easy. We don't have to understand evil acts or even really explain them. Why bother when they are works of the Devil and God wins out in the end anyway? This may be due to English linguistics, where it is much easier to look outward ("You slob! You always leave your socks all over the house!"), rather than take responsibility and REALLY look within. Using the same example of the socks, one might say instead "I get really irritated when you leave your socks on the floor. Would you please pick them up?" The first way is putting blame on "the other." The second way is taking responsibility for one's part in the problem. There is an abdication of responsibility that is condensed in the popular phrase "The Devil made me do it." That's the "cop-out" factor, which is more widespread than the pathetic excuses of Bakker and Swaggart might suggest. Belief in the Devil is handy for any believer who gets a great deal of satisfaction from feeling hatred or guilt. It can legiitimize those emotions. Most believers seem to fear the Devil more than hate him, especially since God is supposed to win that final battle. But many Christians have no problem hating Jews or Muslims or gays--would it not seem that they should hate the Devil most of all? I see little evidence of that. Humanity is capable of much evil and hatred; it seems laughable that we need any more encouragement from the Devil or his minions. It is a remarkable assumption that the Devil can tempt all 6 billion on earth, speaking in 6 billion places at once and in many languages and dialogues or monologues. Of course, this assumption trashes much of the "magical thinking" in Christian belief, so it is rarely thought out, or if it is, certainly not taken seriously within mainstream churches. The fact that you yourself realize that the concept of the Devil has changed thoughout the Bible is a good--may I use the word?--omen. It is time we grew up and placed ancient events in their proper context. The concept of an individual devil arises from a primitive view of reality and is found in many cultures and locations in many different guises. Anything which cannot be explained or that causes harm can be attributed to unseen spirits. Eathquakes or mass murder, take your pick. Science and pyschology (which admittedly the latter has come very close to replacing religion in the secular world) can account for all these causes, but the true path towards understanding on the religious side is an inward journey not an outward blame game on some diabolical "person." And regarding the parable in Luke, it IS a parable. It IS Jesus' distinctive form of teaching. By its very nature, parabolic form DOES NOT instruct or dictate. But it does set the terms out for us to ponder. Jesus, according to some strains of Hebrew tradition, was the personification of Wisdom, the female consort of God. Jewish wisdom literature is contained in specific books of the Bible. Conventional wisdom is depicted in Proverbs. Conventional wisdom tells us that good will be elevated, evil will be punished. Ben Franklin published "Poor Richard's Almanac," an early American example of the same genre ("Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise."). Unconventional wisdom is found in Job and Ecclesiastes--and in Jesus' parables. They routinely frustrate normal expectations. A Samaritan is the one bearing God's mercy. Workers who show up late are paid more than those who show up early. A profligate son is welcomed back with a celebration. Jesus' short sayings as well undercut our common notions of how the world should work. God sends his rain on the just AND the unjust. He causes the sun to shine on the evil AND the good. Bless those who despitefully use you. The last shall be first and the first shall be last. Jesus' authentic speech can be easily seperated from the religious pronouncements put into his mouth by the early church communities. It is an uncontrovertible fact that the gospels are not biographies, but faith documents and as such are a complex blend of mythology, history and theology. Some are not able or willing to see this yet. Only a rise in biblical literacy will do the trick. Taking the bible seriously instead of literally. Most believers are technically literate, but they don't pay close attention when they read and read only to confirm their own prejudices. Being obedient to a sometimes bully pulpit will be seen more and more as a sign of weakness rather than strength. It is not easy to think critically and put aside the lenses we usually use. It is not easy to hold seeming contradiction within one's mind at the same time. It is not easy to have a sense of humor, or to be true to one's vision. It is not easy to open one's heart to a new point of view. The parables are there, hidden deep within another time and culture. Can we dust them off and listen to them in time? |
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