Matt W.

Hello everyone. I am new to this board, but I have been reading it for a while now. I have a fairly simple question:

In your opinion, what is the best way to counter the argument used by some Christians that the Old Testament basically doesn't count?

I'm sure you all know what I am talking about. This is usually not a problem when dealing with intelligent theists, but it is a major problem with some of the less-intelligent ones. I know most of the logical arguments, but logic never prevails when dealing with fundamentalists. What I need is a simple way to make a fundamentalist relative understand that there is more to the Bible than "Jesus loves you".

Here's an example of the extreme ignorance I am dealing with:

Nontheist: "Why did your God help the Israelites committ genocide?"

Theist: "That's not important. Christ's love in the New Testament is what is important."

Nontheist: "Why did your God order his people to stone others to death?"

Theist: "You're missing the point. Jesus loves you."

I am having a debate/discussion with a fundamentalist relative and there must be some way to get through to him!

It is amazing how little the average Christian knows about "God's word".

Thank you in advance for your help,

Matt

big d

One way is to remind them that since they believe Jesus is God (trinity), They also say that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, then Jesus was participating in the killing and deceiving!

sighhswolf

Matt,
I am sure their are others here that can give you more specific ammunition for your debate, and I certainly am nothing but a bystander with no qualifications, but a couple of things come to mind that Orthodox Rabbis teach.

Christians say as you pointed out that Jesus
instituted a new covenant between God and man, and therefore the OT, Torah, hold little relevence to Christianity.

In a way, they are correct, because Christianity itself is practiced in violation of Gods laws that were given to Moses. The very first mention of the law says
I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other Gods before me.

Anyone making a claim to be divine has automatically broken the law according to the Hebrew traditions.

There are those christians who will even
go so far as to discount the Old Testament all together in favor of Paul's ideas.

First, Jesus never said that the laws of God had changed in any way, and he actually preached the importance of adherence to the scribes and Pharisees.

Next, the idea the God has designed a new covenant with man through Jesus is not really a valid idea based on Hebrew law. God makes it clear that he is always the same, does not change and expects his people to follow the laws given to moses.
Ecc.12:13
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the WHOLE DUTY Of MAN.
(my emphasis).
2 KI 17-37
Elisha as Gods prophet said
And the statutes and the ordinances and the law and the commandment which he wrote for you ye shall observe to do for "EVERMORE",
and ye shall not fear other Gods.

Mal. 3-6
For I am the lord, I CHANGE NOT, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The changing face of God that Christians are fond of refering to is a false
image according to the Ancient Hebrew laws.
God remains the same yesterday, today and forever.
He does not do a makeover for Christians.
Some say the only way to God is through the son, Jesus. That salvation is only attained by accepting Christ as the messiah, and the son of God.
Yet Jesus refers to himself as the "Son of Man".
These points are from Jewish law.
And because Jesus broke the law on numerous occassions, the Jews never accepted his divine claims. And by failing to fulfill the conditions of the "Messiah", Jesus set himself above the law. So, as Christians accepting Jesus as God, they are by ancient laws practicing Idolatry.
Christians need to read the conditions of the qualification of the Messiah as set in Jewish law, they would then understand the non-belief by the ancient Hebrews in the divinity of Jesus.
Wolf

Hubzilla

Jesus seemed to think the OT still counted:

Matthew 5:17-19

17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.(KJV)

So, until "all is fulfilled", go ahead and stone your disobedient children, make a woman marry her rapist, kill witches and homosexuals, and slaughter your neighboring tribes (of course, after keeping the virgins for yourself!).

Much of the seperation between Christianity and Judaism is because of Paul. He realized that the Jews just weren't buying the message, so he went to a back-up plan: the Gentiles! Throughtout Acts, he fought with Peter on how to incorporate the Gentiles, whether they needed to follow dietary laws, circumcision, etc. Acts 11:26 calls these Gentile converts "Christians" since they could no longer be considered Jewish sect because those rules weren't being followed.

ex-preacher

I think you're going to have to address this on their terms. Ask them if they believe that the OT has any relevance at all to the Christian today. If they say "no," then you should give up trying to show all the cruelties of God, contradictions, historical & scientific mistakes in the OT. The good news is that there are plenty in the NT.

Hell is a concept far crueler (is that a word?) than anything that God did in the OT. Jesus singlehanded made hell a major doctrine. Paul never mentions it, not once. John doesn't record anything about it either.

Other topics: all the contradictions in the gospels, the false promises about prayer, Jesus' failed prayer in John 17, Jesus' teachings on slavery, absolute nonviolence, cutting off limbs, giving away all your money; the problem with the canon (how do you know we have the right books?); textual problems (like Mk 16:9-20); and the argument from confusion (why do so many sincere Christians disagree so completely on Jesus' teachings?); James 5:14.

Hit 'em hard. Hit 'em often. Hit 'em where it counts. (But in a very loving way.)

critical thinking made ez

Very well said ex-preacher. I wish I had you as my preacher back when I was a believing Baptist. We might have kicked the habit sooner.

(In the voice of the old Gospel preacher)
I love being drug free now. I don't need that toke of Jesus weed anymore. My mind is my mind. Lo' I walk in the shadow of this board, I know that I don't need a god to hold my Darwin evolved hand.

Thank God for atheists like you. Do I hear an amen in the choir? You may be seated.

ex-preacher

Thanks, critical thinking! I must confess that that's not exactly the type of sermon I gave in my fundie days.

GregoryJ

undefined

Genesis is Confused:

Christianity opposes the harmfulness of
material life to condem it's design as
`evil'. The cross's implicit meaning is that
our material birth is our spiritual death and
we are born into this life from the desire to
know evil. The jewish `genesis' asserts the
knowledge of good and evil is opposed
by our loving God, yet genesis intends to
lead the reader to believe this earthly life
is our loving God's will, but also confuses
that conclusion by explicitely asserting God
opposes our knowing of evil. (Genesis
describes a loving, compassionate God,
opposed to our death and suffering, as by
Adam's suffering in solitude and Adam and
Eve's knowledge/experience of evil.)Although
Genesis seems to rebuke anti-materialists, it
rather establishes our beginning was a life
in peace from evil. A loving God would not
oppose our knowing of good, but only of evil,
yet the jewish God is declared opposing our
eternal life and death is evil! GOD CANNOT
OPPOSE BOTH OUR ETERNAL LIVING AND KNOWING
EVIL, only one, and if God opposes us knowing
evil, then God MUST desire our eternal life.
The experience of only good MUST be eternal
life, also as `discharge' from God's company
means harm,suffering, and death ONLY when the
`garden' means life in peace from those. A
loving God will NOT condem it's `children'
from only one mistake, particularly when
God has made us curious and we could not know
evil in whole ignorance of the meanings of
evil, evenmore, God's first will is our life
in peace from evil. Even so, the authors of
genesis are `playing a game' with the
reader, insincerely declaring God judges
creation as good whilst actually
authoritatively establishing our original
state/place of life was a non-material in the
company of God and perfectly good only,
having no death nor harm nor evil. This
provides the most vital foundation which the
following christ must have to `work with',
that being our life as actually spiritual and
Heaven/Eden our true `home'. Unless Genesis
is rightly explained, they whom believe in it
are critically sickened. (and ALL WOMANHOOD
IS SHAMED BY IT)


Even so, it matters less the earth forces us
to live by harm against others and all acts
lead into death, but MORAL GOOD AND RIGHT
SERVES THE CONTINUANCE OF LIFE AND MUST SERVE
THE CONTINUANCE OF LIFE IN IT'S CURRENT
CIRCUMSTANCE. (on earth). The christ is
wrong, for his moral perfection removes our
right to serve the continuance of this life
on earth. The christ has made us wrong-doing
to live this material life, for we must
renounce and sell all possessions to be
right-doing and avoid God's punishing.
Scripturally, christ is offering us life
without evil and death and a society which
lives with love and carefulness of one
another, and as the earth is predatory and
mortality contradicts those values.
(Jesus/Love-for-others cannot sanctify a
predatory, deathly circumstance for God's
beloved `children'.) As certain fact, the
christ is asserting the material creation is
the dominion of evil and our true home is our
original place with God in heaven/Eden. Even
so, we cannot live without body, property,
etc. and we are `here' now and MUST serve
the continuance of this material living,
which requires FULL moral right to property,
etc.. Also, the christ's duty to love all
others requires his cross of self-denial and
that cross is effectively condemming all
selfishness, for again, to be right-doing one
must deny themselves to the uttermost each
day and only serve others. Life derives from
two morally equal identities and both must
love themself and the other to exist and
live, and true moral good is the dualism of
love for oneself and love for others, NOT the
onensss of ONLY loving and serving others.
Clearly, givers need takers and taking MUST
BE good also, for if taking is less than
perfectly good the giver then incriminates
the taker and the act ceases to be loving,
becoming only a predatory act of selfishness,
paradoxically! When moral right/good is
supposed as only the one way of loving others
it condems self-serving, and the christ is
acting to drive all material life into death,
as if a return to God's company/Eden.
(when two people want to pass through a
door and both must serve first the other,
neither can move and all action ceases!!)

My site offers an essay examining several of
this life's ethical/moral issues, and looks
at the practical means for ones own
life-protection in a selfish and predatory
circumstance. This work intends to offer some
amount of knowledge and reasoning as a
foundation from which to pursue a
clear-sighted understanding of several of
this life's most important ethical/moral
issues. This essay serves opposition to the
mulititude of harms that are intrinsic and
perpetual in material living, whilst also
explaining why our intentions and efforts
against the harms, tragedies, and injustices
on the earth are futile. All issues presented
are involved within the context of the
spiritualism of christianity and with
critical arguements against the popular views
of the christ's message. Of special interest,
I offer a unique theory describing the
original state of cosmic infinity and it's
cause and intent for change from it's first
state. The essay is titled `Creation, Human
Society, and Suffering', 58 pages long, near
238KB, and can be viewed and freely saved at http://www.mts.net/~gregoryj.

Beelzebub

I don't see how it is possible for a christian to divorce himself from the OT. #1 Jesus and the apostles were jewish and mostly lived that way. #2. The entire concept of a messiah as well as the prerequisites for one is contained in it. #3. The God of the trinity is Jehovah, whose book is the OT. Maybe they could change the name to Paulianity.

Asimis

The OT doesnt counts? Then you dont believe in the creation!! [/LIST]