Not sure if I should post this one here or on the open discussion...

I was re-exaiming my former faith which was the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. They make note that the "Trinity" is three distinct entities in one. Well, now that I have re-examined it in a new light I sent them a question. Basically I asked a question based on some of the stuff I read by Dennis McKinsey...the question went something like this:

<<How can the Church profess the belief in the Trinity when no where in the Bible does it mention the words Triune or Trinity? Also, these verses seem to imply there is one God:

"...the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him" (Deut. 4:35); "...for there is none like thee, neither is there
any god beside thee" (2 Sam. 7:22); "I am God and there is none like me" (Isa. 46:9).
(See also: Deut. 4:39, 6:4, Mark 12:29, Isa. 45:5-6, 1 Chron. 17:20, 1 Sam. 2:2 and Kings 8:60).>>

Here's the response they e-mailed me:

<<<Let me provide a brief response to your questions.

First, there are many things and terms not explicitly mentioned in
the Bible. Just to use a rather dramatic example to illustrate the
point. Nowhere does the Bible say that it is wrong to crash your car
into another person's car, yet it is. How do we know that? Because we
read and understand the various texts of Scripture to teach that we
are not to cause harm or destruction to another person's property.

So also, we read and understand what Scripture reveals about God to
teach us that God is one eternal being, with three distinct persons.
We recognize this to be a great mystery of our faith, namely,
something that we, with our fallible human intellect, can not "figure
out." But we do recognize that the doctrine of the Trinity is how God
reveals Himself in His word.

All the verses you mention do not "disprove" the existence of God as
one being with three persons, they are confessing that in fact He is God, and there is none other.

I would highly recommend you spend some time with the resource
mentioned above that provides a careful summary of the doctrine of
the Trinity as drawn from Holy Scripture.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of Holy Spirit be with you.

Cordially in Christ,>>>

Naturally I expected the "great mystery" defense. According to this pastor the verses I noted did not disprove a trinity. So what--if any--verses prove that there is a Trinity or Triune God? I doubt I'll play any more with this guy because I forsee a long drawn out circular argument. Anyhow, what do you all think?

[This message has been edited by Thomas (edited March 07, 2001).]

Ernest Sparks

'Trinity' just means 'threeness' or 'threefoldness', or maybe just 'trio'.
Since Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned together and separately in the New Testament, it is natural that this might get codified in some way. The great ecumenical councils of Nicea (325) and Constantinople (381) were pivotal in the first century of establishment of Christianity, the same time Rome enfranchised it. Belief in the Trinity became a litmus test of orthodoxy. But even in the creed the word "trinity" is not used.

The Eastern Orthodox liturgies frequently speak of God as "One, Holy and Undivided Trinity".

Ernie

The following is only my humble opinion, but I hope it may give some insight:
This verse does not say the word Trinity, but it at the very least implies what Trinity means. I don't think hardly anyone disagrees that the "Word" in this verse is understood to be the Son of God, that is Jesus. With that understanding, one would have to conclude that John is either an imbecile or he was trying to allude to the fact that Jesus was somehow (the mysterious part) separate from what is God, and that Jesus was God at the same time.

The question I had with this verse is, how can a thing be "with" something, and "be" that same thing at the same time?

Derived from other teachings in the New Testament, the following is an analogy / paraphrase that may help to understand this "mystery."

We (humans) are unable to hear / comprehend what God (the one and only almighty) wants to say to us directly (either we can not hear it, or if it were actually given to us directly form The Source, then it would destroy us; we can not handle it). Therefore He sent his Son to talk with us directly. His "Son" is actually an extension of Himself that has always been "with" Him. The said "extension" took on flesh (became human, became like us), so that it could communicate with us in a more perfect way.

My hands are an extension of me. If you are deaf (i.e. you can not hear / comprehend if I speak to you directly), then I could speak to you with my hands using sign language. What is actually doing the speaking? My hands, or my brain? Either answer would be correct I suppose. With respect to the analogy, God the Father is the Brain, and God the Son is the sign language (the Word) / hands. My hands are both "with" me and they "are" me at the same time.

Jesus said that He could not do or say anything unless the Father commanded Him to do so. Likewise our hands only act when our brains send the signal to do so.

As with every analogy, it breaks down in many areas, for instance Jesus is much more than a simple pair of hands, and likewise the Father is more than the even the most brilliant of all brains. But the analogy is only meant to show how multiple things can be "one" entity.

If anyone cares to add to the analogy, or simply show how it doesn't really give any insight at all, I would like to read it. Also, if anyone could show how the Holy Spirit can be worked into the analogy, that would be helpful as well.

-Actually, I disagree that the "Word" in this verse is to be understood as the "Son of God" in a traditional "fall-redemption" theological sense or that Jesus was ever truly separate from God. "Word" is a translation of the Greek word logos which is a translation of the Hebrew term/concept dabhar. Dabhar is the creative force of the universe. (1) So this verse really is identifying this creative force with and as God in a very panetheistic, creation spirituality. Jesus is not being identified as a separate entity or part of God as part of a trinity. He is being indentified as part of a whole and ONE God. Furthermore, Jesus shows that we are all indentified with this one God. Two passages that come to mind are the one in Luke where he is quoted as saying "The Kingdom of God is within you." and in John where he says to his audience that many here will surpass the miracles that he has done. So I don't think that the passage is really trying to say that Jesus was seperate from God at all. Even though Jesus is the Word (dabhar) made flesh, he always was, always is and always will be with God.

-Spider

(1) Taken from Original Blessing by Matthew Fox.

I have a hard time with your analogy:

Now, since you are talking about God (nonspatial) it seems to me that spatial analogies are unhelpful. The question before you is this:
How can a (nonspatial) soul be with another (nonspatial) soul and yet be that (nonspatial)soul?

Again, I have to ask, if someone only read the Old Testament and knew NOTHING about the NT, or Christianity in any fashion, would the doctrine of the Trinity be revealed to that person through ONLY the OT? Would that person know of Jesus or any of the specifically Christian doctrines only by reading the OT??? If not, then how can the Trinity be a true doctrine?

I know that from seminary, the professors taught that to understand the OT, you had to use Christ as the looking glass to see the real picture of the OT. That is faulty, the OT should be used to look at Christ! And when one does that, one can see he was not the messiah!

Well, if that's the case, what is going on??

<A HREF="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin02.html" TARGET=_blank>
Trinity in the OT</A>

http://www.evolvefish.com/freewrite/trinity.html
This article talks about how skeptics believe the trinity was invented.