This is what atheists like to say to prove Jesus didn't live a perfect life. But, back in those days, calling a woman a "woman" was a sign of respect for elders, so it wasn't being mean or disrespectful.

[This message has been edited by Eternal (edited May 12, 2001).]

Please..

I beg of you...

Do Not Feed The Troll..

DC

It was just as respectful back in the day of Jesus to call a female "woman" as it was respectful to call a black man "BOY" back in my parents day!

Brighid

sigh.

Actually...DC I just had a thought...are you married to Et?

Or are you just "dispassionately" against him/her?

LOL



Helen

[This message has been edited by HelenSL (edited May 14, 2001).]

Supply proof or retract, troll.

Allow me to jump in here if I may. For one, to correct "Eternal," the actual phrasing Jesus used was closer to "dear woman," not simply "woman." I'm also unknowledgable about his "respect for elders" assertion.

He is correct, however, in asserting that Jesus' words weren't rude as they would be today nearly 2000 years later. Remember, the 21st century American culture is vastly different from that of the 1st century Middle East. As similar phrases in ancient Greek literature show, the phrase Jesus used here is actually one of loving respect. According to Raymond Brown in his commentary on John's gospel, this is not only Jesus' main way of addressing women (cf. John 4:21, 8:10, 19:26, 20:31; Mt. 15:28; Lk. 13:12), it's common in the Greek literature of the same era and never shows a hint of disrespect.

George R. Beasley-Murray (in another commentary on John) notes that the same phrase is used in Josephus' "Antiquities" (17:17) by a man named Pheroras when addressing his "beloved wife."

That's all I have at this point. Your comments and questions are welcome. (Although if you're disrespectful or insulting about it, I may ignore you--I'm only interested in courteous, tactful debate here. )

Andrew

[This message has been edited by Andrew Anderson (edited May 17, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Andrew Anderson (edited May 17, 2001).]

At the risk of sounding apologetic, you have to put it into context!

The context in which the word is used shows that it was a rebuke, it is not so much the word itself but the way in which it is being used.

Amen-Moses

I know next to nothing about the language Jesus used, so if scholars say the use of the term "woman" was not considered disrespectful in that time/culture, I won't argue. However, I think it is really an irrelevent issue anyway. *If* Jesus is God and *if* God is by definition perfectly good, then *anything* Jesus called his mother would be considered acceptable, whether it was "woman", "dear woman", or "galley wench."

Indeed you are correct--context is key! But was this really a rebuke? My analysis of the phrase "dear woman" above shows that at the very least IF this was a rebuke, then it was a rather respectful one, similar to how someone in present-day America might say, "Ma'am, why are you getting me involved right now? It's not my time yet." Probably, we wouldn't view this as rude. More than likely, however, the saying in question was probably a respectful admonition or reminder to His mother that it wasn't time for His ministry to start yet. If we have any leftover doubts that Jesus was being snide or disrespectful with His mother or even yelling at (rebuking) her, these should be erased by the time we get to verse 7 of John chapter 2 and see that Jesus decides to grant her request anyway! I don't see any signs of conflict here upon close examination between Jesus and Mary. Instead I see quite the opposite: Jesus, so filled with compassion on the ones in charge of the downspiraling wedding and with love for His earthly mother, adjusts His plans and adapts them graciously for these people.

Does this help?

Andrew