Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 05-08-2013, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

He is speaking to the JEWS ostensibly,

Something you got right; 'ostensibly', but Justin knows from the git-go that Jews aren't buying what he is selling, and will NOT buy it. The gentiles are his real audience and at whom all this is addressed, and it is the gentiles these writings are intended to persuade and indoctrinate.
Worked too ....dammit.
....But we don't need to be suckers today.

Duvduv · 05-08-2013, 08:14 PM

In which case resorting to Paul was unnecessary if his job was simply to prove the fulfillment of the Torah in Jesus for Torah friendly gentiles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

He is speaking to the JEWS ostensibly,

Something you got right; 'ostensibly', but Justin knows from the git-go that Jews aren't buying what he is selling, and will NOT buy it. The gentiles are his real audience and at whom all this is addressed, and it is the gentiles these writings are intended to persuade and indoctrinate.
Worked too ....dammit.
....But we don't need to be suckers today.

Duvduv · 05-08-2013, 08:19 PM

Shesh, it wouldn't be a problem if their agenda was showing fictional antiquity to the second century for the literati of society. Worries about heresy were for the small fry, not the regime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Not much chance of authorship in the 4th century, as what is in Justin does not jive with nor support some very critical 4th century Christian faith claims.
If these Justin writings had been penned in the 4th century, the writer would have been hunted down for heresy, and every copy sought out for destruction.
Who in the 4th century church would wish to commit suicide by forging a text that contained statements and views not endorsed by the Orthodox church?

The Orthodox church would not have produced a forged text whose content so disagreed with or betrayed their precious Doctrine of consubstantiality, and showed no indications at all of the all important Doctrine of Apostolic succession, the very foundation of the Orthodox Church's claim to hold Apostolic authority.
There would have been nothing for them to gain in such, only fodder for their adversaries.

Not only would they not have produced any such text, they would not have preserved such a text, unless it had the pedigree of being a long established and counted as authentic part of their past, historically supported by attestation in the writings of many church fathers.
They kept it because they had little choice, as the church had been lauding and quoting Justin for over 150 years in establishing the claims of their religion.

The internal evidence of Justin's works indicate an early authorship at a time where 'Acts', the 'Pauline Epistles,' and Orthodox developed Doctrines were as yet unknown.

.

Sheshbazzar · 05-08-2013, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Worries about heresy were for the small fry, not the regime.

Those in the regime, must speak as the regime, those in The Church must speak as the Church. Those that don't are 'removed'.

Lots of important people lost their heads back then, and for a thousand years after, figuratively and literally.
It didn't matter who you were, a word spoken against Cesar, The Church, or its Holy Doctrines,
you either recanted ....or you were screwed. In Byzantium there was always someone that wanted to take you down,
it was made profitable both for The Church and the betrayer. The bigger the target the bigger the rewards (and risks)

It was an uuggly, nasty, bloody age.

.

Duvduv · 05-09-2013, 05:27 AM

OK, but if regime-sponsored writers had the freedom to present the new religion the way they wanted in order to provide the air of authenticity and antiquity, then they could write anything and date it to any time. They weren't worried about persecution for heresy.

Speaking of which, who knows how far persecution actually even went if at all? It wasn't at the alleged Nicaea Council which is said to have invited "Christian bishops" of all types, and the Visigoths supposedly were Arians, and the Church was endlessly issuing new edicts and holding new councils. So it could not have been all that big a deal. Besides, there isn't that much that would reflect the actual existence of such communities altogether.

And then again, we don't know of all the famous leaders of all those alleged sects who were burned at the stake so to speak, like the later cases John Hus, John Tynsdale etc, not to mention Thomas Cramner, Thomas More several hundred years ago for which even the ancient Church would have taken pride in recording their elimination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Worries about heresy were for the small fry, not the regime.

Those in the regime, must speak as the regime, those in The Church must speak as the Church. Those that don't are 'removed'.

Lots of important people lost their heads back then, and for a thousand years after, figuratively and literally.
It didn't matter who you were, a word spoken against Cesar, The Church, or its Holy Doctrines,
you either recanted ....or you were screwed. In Byzantium there was always someone that wanted to take you down,
it was made profitable both for The Church and the betrayer. The bigger the target the bigger the rewards (and risks)

It was an uuggly, nasty, bloody age.

.

Chili · 05-09-2013, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

He is speaking to the JEWS ostensibly,

Something you got right; 'ostensibly', but Justin knows from the git-go that Jews aren't buying what he is selling, and will NOT buy it. The gentiles are his real audience and at whom all this is addressed, and it is the gentiles these writings are intended to persuade and indoctrinate.
Worked too ....dammit.
....But we don't need to be suckers today.

Correct, they never were 'after the Jew' but instead created a new paradise for the Jew where they could be roamers and rovers at their own peril as host nation for them.

It was done to unify the gentiles into one powerful nation where argosy was trump to give the Jew a run for his money in what became known as heaven on earth with all roads leading to Rome.

Their indoctrination was induced only to foreshadow the reality behind the induction so it may come home the rest in the mind of the believer first hand.

It so was like an evangelist within to show them the way while on the way out, wherein West was their destiny sought where 'in sin' they were co-creator with God on their side.

Chili · 05-09-2013, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Worries about heresy were for the small fry, not the regime.

Those in the regime, must speak as the regime, those in The Church must speak as the Church. Those that don't are 'removed'.

Lots of important people lost their heads back then, and for a thousand years after, figuratively and literally.
It didn't matter who you were, a word spoken against Cesar, The Church, or its Holy Doctrines,
you either recanted ....or you were screwed. In Byzantium there was always someone that wanted to take you down,
it was made profitable both for The Church and the betrayer. The bigger the target the bigger the rewards (and risks)

It was an uuggly, nasty, bloody age.

.

Not really if you play by the rules. It is much like a soccer game wherein the referee rules, and you cannot just create you own net to catch balls in it too.

Duvduv · 05-09-2013, 08:08 AM

Somehow I have my doubts. If the regime were so intent on eliminating so-called deviants why did they constantly have to have councils and issue decrees over and over and over again, and then face the fact of enduring "heretical" groups that supposedly existed, or that were their enemies?
Did this really occur?
In any case, the Visigoths were allegedly Arians, and the empire didn't eliminate them. They endured for a long time......despite repeated councils and edicts I am sure that rarely implemented or paid attention to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Worries about heresy were for the small fry, not the regime.

Those in the regime, must speak as the regime, those in The Church must speak as the Church. Those that don't are 'removed'.

Lots of important people lost their heads back then, and for a thousand years after, figuratively and literally.
It didn't matter who you were, a word spoken against Cesar, The Church, or its Holy Doctrines,
you either recanted ....or you were screwed. In Byzantium there was always someone that wanted to take you down,
it was made profitable both for The Church and the betrayer. The bigger the target the bigger the rewards (and risks)

It was an uuggly, nasty, bloody age.

.

Chili · 05-09-2013, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Somehow I have my doubts. If the regime were so intent on eliminating so-called deviants why did they constantly have to have councils and issue decrees over and over and over again, and then face the fact of enduring "heretical" groups that supposedly existed, or that were their enemies?
Did this really occur?
In any case, the Visigoths were allegedly Arians, and the empire didn't eliminate them. They endured for a long time......despite repeated councils and edicts I am sure that rarely implemented or paid attention to.

That would be quite natural if the reign of God is created by the anti-christ = in sin conceived. So these heretics keep re-emerging with different version to refine the truth whereon they stand.

And lets not forget here that all saints were sinners who in their conversion experience had an explosion inside their own mind wherein they become God in their own right much in the manner of Paul, for example, wherein all historic great men became greats, and these are those they declared saints.

We are talking heaven on earth here now that is far beyond the scope of humans to see, and be reminded again that 'prots' were allowed for as long as they did not scatter their flock as wolves in sheep's clothing to them, where now wolves were OK to fine-tune the shepherd for as long is they do not devour their flock.

Every rancher knows that, and really, only people ranchers they were.

Sheshbazzar · 05-09-2013, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Somehow I have my doubts. If the regime were so intent on eliminating so-called deviants why did they constantly have to have councils and issue decrees over and over and over again, and then face the fact of enduring "heretical" groups that supposedly existed, or that were their enemies?
Did this really occur?
In any case, the Visigoths were allegedly Arians, and the empire didn't eliminate them. They endured for a long time......despite repeated councils and edicts I am sure that rarely implemented or paid attention to.

The Edicts and Decrees, and their wording, passed by the various Conuils and Synods, approved and/or issued by the Cesar's, and enforced by the Imperial Roman army are a matter of historical record.
Being a member of the 'wrong' group alone, could cause one to be sripped of citizenship and property, denied right to own a business or practice a trade.
Publicly teaching a view or doctrine that was contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Faith was crimanalized. Books opposed to or critical of Christianity were to be burned, and their authors if located, summarily executed, as well as anyone that kept or attempted to conceal such banned books.
These rulings were issued from Rome and heavily enforced in the Empire's population centers, but were more difficult to enforce in remote areas and provinces.
The Visgoths were too numerous, militant and powerful, and their territories to far-flung for Rome to be able to seriously enforce its dictates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Worries about heresy were for the small fry, not the regime.

Those in the regime, must speak as the regime, those in The Church must speak as the Church. Those that don't are 'removed'.

Lots of important people lost their heads back then, and for a thousand years after, figuratively and literally.
It didn't matter who you were, a word spoken against Cesar, The Church, or its Holy Doctrines,
you either recanted ....or you were screwed. In Byzantium there was always someone that wanted to take you down,
it was made profitable both for The Church and the betrayer. The bigger the target the bigger the rewards (and risks)

It was an uuggly, nasty, bloody age.
.

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