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Old 03-26-2013, 06:40 PM   #1
SLD
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Default What happened to the original Christians in Jerusalem?

I realize that eventually after 66 AD they were likely wiped out along with the rest of Jerusalem, but what is interesting about the Bible is how little interplay there seems to be amongst Christian groups in other parts of the Empire and those in Jerusalem. And of course the events in the bible mostly transpire before the Jewish Revolt. So why the lack of a connection with the original group? One author I read said that these Christians later became the Ebionites, who distanced themselves from Paul. Paul was the founder of these other groups throughout the Greek cities and Rome. Makes sense. Not sure though how one could prove such a conjecture.

Also, what does this lack of connection though imply about a historical Jesus? Does it indicate that in some sense we are dealing with two different Jesus's - one mythical and the other real (whom the Jerusalem group clung to in the face of Paul's mythological version)?

Any other good conjectures?

SLD
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:41 PM   #2
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They were probably mythical. The 'primitive Church' story of Hegesippus is a complete lie.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:07 PM   #3
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They were probably mythical. The 'primitive Church' story of Hegesippus is a complete lie.
What?? It is not only Hegesippus. Once you understand that Hegesippus lied then it is reasonably certain that the truth was not established at the time of the lies.

When lies go undetected for hundreds of years it means those to whom the lies were told could not have known the true history of the Church and no other history was established before Hegesippus.

Tell any one a lie, if they believe then they did NOT know the truth.

The very same applies to the Canon.

People believed there were early Christians because they never knew the stories about Christians in Acts and the Pauline letters were false.
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Old 03-28-2013, 05:32 AM   #4
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According to Eusebius
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But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.
The historicity of the flight to Pella is questionable.

Another possibility is that there was a continuing Jewish-Christian church in Jerusalem until the wars under Hadrian when Jerusalem became a Gentile city. There was a late 2nd century Gentile-Christian church in Jerusalem but it may have had no connection with the earlier Jewish-Christian church.

Andrew Criddle
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:46 AM   #5
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Any other good conjectures?

SLD

We just don't know enough on all side of the coin here to make any determinations.


Its my unfounded in this case "opinion" that after Jesus death his real handful of apostles went back to Galilee in fear for their lives.

There may have been a "house" in Jerusalem where people followed the mythology of Jesus, but I feel this would have been Hellenistic sect exactly like the rest of the movement. There would have been no connection with the real apostles. I'll state that I think there may have been a person/s there with names familiar to the gospel legends, and that was played upon, used by the unknown Hellenistic auithors.

There would be no reason for the Jewish Galilean fishermen living on food scraps while teaching and healing to stay in a large Hellenistic city. These were broke country bumkins who's leader was dead.
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Old 03-28-2013, 07:50 PM   #6
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I realize that eventually after 66 AD they were likely wiped out along with the rest of Jerusalem, but what is interesting about the Bible is how little interplay there seems to be amongst Christian groups in other parts of the Empire and those in Jerusalem.

It's almost as if they didn't exist at all, isn't it?
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:34 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by SLD View Post
I realize that eventually after 66 AD they were likely wiped out along with the rest of Jerusalem, but what is interesting about the Bible is how little interplay there seems to be amongst Christian groups in other parts of the Empire and those in Jerusalem. And of course the events in the bible mostly transpire before the Jewish Revolt. So why the lack of a connection with the original group? One author I read said that these Christians later became the Ebionites, who distanced themselves from Paul. Paul was the founder of these other groups throughout the Greek cities and Rome. Makes sense. Not sure though how one could prove such a conjecture.

Also, what does this lack of connection though imply about a historical Jesus? Does it indicate that in some sense we are dealing with two different Jesus's - one mythical and the other real (whom the Jerusalem group clung to in the face of Paul's mythological version)?

Any other good conjectures?

SLD
The Ebionites left Jerusalem before it fell in 70 CE. They existed for some centuries with a primitive theology in small numbers. By the 4th century they were officially declared heretics. They left few writings and eventually faded away. They were never numerous or widespread, nor active or successful proselytizers.

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Old 03-28-2013, 11:06 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle View Post
The historicity of the flight to Pella is questionable....
Virtually everything about Jesus, the disciples and Paul are highly questionable.
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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle
Another possibility is that there was a continuing Jewish-Christian church in Jerusalem until the wars under Hadrian when Jerusalem became a Gentile city. There was a late 2nd century Gentile-Christian church in Jerusalem but it may have had no connection with the earlier Jewish-Christian church.

Andrew Criddle
You must have realized that it is possible that there was no Jewish-Christian church in Jerusalem in the 1st century.

Your speculation is not really of much use since it is not evidence from antiquity.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:11 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post

The Ebionites left Jerusalem before it fell in 70 CE. They existed for some centuries with a primitive theology in small numbers. By the 4th century they were officially declared heretics. They left few writings and eventually faded away. They were never numerous or widespread, nor active or successful proselytizers.

Cheerful Charlie
The Ebionites were mentioned as heretics in Against Hereise attributed to Irenaeus before the 4th century and also in Refutation of All Heresies attributed to Hippolytus.
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Old 03-29-2013, 05:07 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by SLD View Post
I realize that eventually after 66 AD they were likely wiped out along with the rest of Jerusalem, but what is interesting about the Bible is how little interplay there seems to be amongst Christian groups in other parts of the Empire and those in Jerusalem. And of course the events in the bible mostly transpire before the Jewish Revolt. So why the lack of a connection with the original group? One author I read said that these Christians later became the Ebionites, who distanced themselves from Paul. Paul was the founder of these other groups throughout the Greek cities and Rome. Makes sense. Not sure though how one could prove such a conjecture.

Also, what does this lack of connection though imply about a historical Jesus? Does it indicate that in some sense we are dealing with two different Jesus's - one mythical and the other real (whom the Jerusalem group clung to in the face of Paul's mythological version)?

Any other good conjectures?

SLD
There is also NO connection--No impact of the supposed Jesus cult outside Jerusalem with the populace.

Paul was supposedly a Jew who was all over the Roman Empire for about 25 years telling Roman citizens, Greeks and Jews to worship a Jewish man as a God and it is claimed he started Churches.

Yet we cannot find any writers of antiquity in the 1st century to make note of such an unprecedented affair.

How was it possible for a Jew to have gone to Rome and preach PUBLICLY that a Dead Jewish Man was the Son of God and that even the Roman Emperor should bow to his name??

There were simply NO Jesus cult before c 66 CE that is precisely why they cannot be found in or out Jerusalem.

Since those mentioned in the Canon itself have never been found how are we going to find those who were never mentioned??
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