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Old 07-02-2013, 04:17 PM   #11
Minimalist
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Of that most claim two areas factual and within this group, and there is 100% consensus he was baptized by John and died on a cross.

If only you had evidence because I sure as hell am not going to take your word for it.
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Old 07-02-2013, 04:56 PM   #12
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I don't think this is any more true of mythicists than it is of historicists.

There is a 99.9999% consensus he existed.

Of that most claim two areas factual and within this group, and there is 100% consensus he was baptized by John and died on a cross.


Only detailed descriptions are debated. Not the whole idea of his existance.
Well, you invented your statistics. Please show the source for your propaganda.

It is most remarkable how you blatantly make fallacious claims about a consensus on the existence, baptism and crucifixion of Jesus.

Are there no HJer who appreciate the fact that in the Bible Jesus had NO human father?

Do not HJers understand that Christians of the Jesus cult were MARTYRED for

their claim that Jesus had NO human father and was the Son of God born of a Ghost?

Why would Christians lie about their Jesus and die for him if every one knew they were lying?
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Old 07-02-2013, 06:16 PM   #13
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There is a 99.9999% consensus he [Jesus] existed.

Of that most claim two areas factual and within this [consensus?] group, and

1) there is 100% consensus he [Jesus] was baptized by John and

2) [Jesus] died on a cross.
Outhouse,

Do you even realize where these "consensus" claims come from?

Sounds like you may have read one of E. P. Sanders' books:

Jesus and Judaism (or via: amazon.co.uk), 1985, pp. 10-11 The Historical Figure of Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk), 1993, pp. 10-11
  1. Jesus was born c. 4 bce, near the time of the death of Herod the Great;
2. Jesus was a Galilean who preached and healed. 2. he spent his childhood and early adult years in Nazareth, a Galilean village;
1. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. 3. he was baptized by John the Baptist;
3. Jesus called disciples and spoke of there being twelve. 4. he called disciples;
4. Jesus confined his activity to Israel. 5. he taught in the towns, villages and countryside of Galilee (apparently not the cities);
  6. he preached ‘the kingdom of God’;
  7. about the year 30 he went to Jerusalem for Passover;
5. Jesus engaged in a controversy about the temple. 8. he created a disturbance in the Temple area;
  9. he had a final meal with the disciples;
  10. he was arrested and interrogated by Jewish authorities, specifically the high priest;
6. Jesus was crucified outside Jerusalem by the Roman authorities. 11. he was executed on the orders of the Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate.
7. After his death Jesus’ followers continued as an identifiable movement 12. his disciples at first fled;
  13. they saw him (in what sense is not certain) after his death;
  14. as a consequence, they believed that he would return to found the kingdom;
  15. they formed a community to await his return and sought to win others to faith in him as God’s Messiah.

These are basically his list of what he considers to be indisputable facts about Jesus. And you'll note that these "facts" are moving targets.

John P. Meer has his own set in volume 1 of A Marginal Jew (or via: amazon.co.uk), 1991, and so will likely everyone who produces a survey of Jesus' life.

Books like these are the basics of New Testament Criticism. Sometimes it seems you have never got past the introductions, though.

DCH
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Old 07-02-2013, 06:41 PM   #14
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Now available as an e-book on Kindle:

The Historical Bejeesuz (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Robert M. Price

a collection of essays which are much more serious than the title of the book.
Can't hold a candle to the historical Jebus
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Old 07-02-2013, 06:48 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by outhouse View Post
There is a 99.9999% consensus he [Jesus] existed.

Of that most claim two areas factual and within this [consensus?] group, and

1) there is 100% consensus he [Jesus] was baptized by John and

2) [Jesus] died on a cross.
Outhouse,

Do you even realize where these "consensus" claims come from?

Sounds like you may have read one of E. P. Sanders' books:

Jesus and Judaism (or via: amazon.co.uk), 1985, pp. 10-11 The Historical Figure of Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk), 1993, pp. 10-11
  1. Jesus was born c. 4 bce, near the time of the death of Herod the Great;
2. Jesus was a Galilean who preached and healed. 2. he spent his childhood and early adult years in Nazareth, a Galilean village;
1. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. 3. he was baptized by John the Baptist;
3. Jesus called disciples and spoke of there being twelve. 4. he called disciples;
4. Jesus confined his activity to Israel. 5. he taught in the towns, villages and countryside of Galilee (apparently not the cities);
  6. he preached ‘the kingdom of God’;
  7. about the year 30 he went to Jerusalem for Passover;
5. Jesus engaged in a controversy about the temple. 8. he created a disturbance in the Temple area;
  9. he had a final meal with the disciples;
  10. he was arrested and interrogated by Jewish authorities, specifically the high priest;
6. Jesus was crucified outside Jerusalem by the Roman authorities. 11. he was executed on the orders of the Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate.
7. After his death Jesus’ followers continued as an identifiable movement 12. his disciples at first fled;
  13. they saw him (in what sense is not certain) after his death;
  14. as a consequence, they believed that he would return to found the kingdom;
  15. they formed a community to await his return and sought to win others to faith in him as God’s Messiah.

These are basically his list of what he considers to be indisputable facts about Jesus. And you'll note that these "facts" are moving targets.

John P. Meer has his own set in volume 1 of A Marginal Jew (or via: amazon.co.uk), 1991, and so will likely everyone who produces a survey of Jesus' life.

Books like these are the basics of New Testament Criticism. Sometimes it seems you have never got past the introductions, though.

DCH
Ive read a few from Sanders, but mainly everything to do with HJ. I like him but he is not someone I follow whole cloth nor blindly.


Wiki on HJ makes this claim of two facts.


1985 I follow
#1 #2 #4 #5 #6 #7

1993 I do not follow
#1 #9 #10 #12 #13 #14 #15



I shave the legend to its core at best.
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Old 07-02-2013, 07:10 PM   #16
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Ive read a few [books] from Sanders, but mainly everything to do with HJ. I like him [Sanders] but he is not someone I follow whole cloth nor blindly. ...

1985 I follow
#1 #2 #4 #5 #6 #7

1993 I do not follow
#1 #9 #10 #12 #13 #14 #15

I shave the legend to its core at best.
All I'd ask is that when you say something, you back it up with a citation.

Example: "I think that Jesus was likely baptized by John the Baptist because so and so says, on pages 17-29 of his book Jesus was Left Handed (2012), that 'this pericope correlates well with what is said about John the Baptist in Josephus, War, Book 4'." (I know, it's not a deep example, but please humor me)

Do you borrow the books from the library, or do you buy them to read and internalize?

For $20-$30 (US dollars) a month (which is about how long it takes to read through a book and internalize what is said or claimed, and maybe do a little checking of sources to see if what is said is supportable) isn't really too hard to do.

Quote:
Wiki on HJ makes this claim of [the] two facts.
Wiki, while often useful, is not a credible source because anyone can edit an article at any time, representing many often contradictory points of view.

DCH
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Old 07-02-2013, 07:27 PM   #17
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I don't think this is any more true of mythicists than it is of historicists.

There is a 99.9999% consensus he existed.
Huh? Last I heard, the population of the earth was around 8 billion. Let's be generous and say half of those are Christian or Moslem. The other half is Hindu, Hebrew, Buddhist, animist, atheist, and others I can't remember at the moment. Does your 99.9999% include them?

Thanks in advance for your response.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:07 PM   #18
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Hi Tom - the book is not self published. It's a compilation of articles, some of which were in regular journals, now published by American Atheists Press.

Price has his own reasons for what he does. He has put in his time in academia, engaging his peers. You can always shoot a question to the Bible Geek podcast if you have a suggestion for him. http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/biblegeek.php
American Atheist Press is not much better than a POD service like Lulu (of which I know first hand); it is in the hands of the President of AA essentially, and while it has a general editor, it's not that amazing. Prometheus Books are somewhat similarly run--know the president of CFI? Chances are good you can publish there.

Now maybe some of the articles were published in regular journals, but not all of them. I know Bob has his reasons--I've worked with Bob before and I like Bob (he's a brilliant guy), but I wish he'd focus on publishing his original research in academia and not through AAP. Books like this fall right into the stereotype that individuals like Ehrman create and are then used to justify their positions. And Bob does this a lot. It is really unfortunate.
All valid points. It's disappointing, because Price is the one guy that cannot be slagged off by the Ehrmans as being "unqualified" to write about the historical Jesus. It could be that Price just doesn't want to deal with the BS that would come from being peer reviewed. He definitely deserves better than AA Press.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:19 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Hi Tom - the book is not self published. It's a compilation of articles, some of which were in regular journals, now published by American Atheists Press.

Price has his own reasons for what he does. He has put in his time in academia, engaging his peers. You can always shoot a question to the Bible Geek podcast if you have a suggestion for him. http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/biblegeek.php
American Atheist Press is not much better than a POD service like Lulu (of which I know first hand); it is in the hands of the President of AA essentially, and while it has a general editor, it's not that amazing. Prometheus Books are somewhat similarly run--know the president of CFI? Chances are good you can publish there.

Now maybe some of the articles were published in regular journals, but not all of them. I know Bob has his reasons--I've worked with Bob before and I like Bob (he's a brilliant guy), but I wish he'd focus on publishing his original research in academia and not through AAP. Books like this fall right into the stereotype that individuals like Ehrman create and are then used to justify their positions. And Bob does this a lot. It is really unfortunate.
All valid points. It's disappointing, because Price is the one guy that cannot be slagged off by the Ehrmans as being "unqualified" to write about the historical Jesus. It could be that Price just doesn't want to deal with the BS that would come from being peer reviewed. He definitely deserves better than AA Press.
I'm not sure why people think there is some grand crusade against mythicism. Leaving certain parties out of the equation, most peer reviewers are not going to shut down a paper because the conclusion is 'Jesus may not have existed historically.' They may turn it down for other reasons (not dealing with the evidence credibly, ignoring arguments, lying, etc...) but they won't turn it down for its conclusion alone. I think this is a stigma that has to be broken. It's a perpetually damaging cycle; mythicists won't publish and therefore they continue to claim they can't publish because no one has been published. It is self-defeating. If your case is strong, it will go through peer review.
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Old 07-02-2013, 09:12 PM   #20
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Ive read a few [books] from Sanders, but mainly everything to do with HJ. I like him [Sanders] but he is not someone I follow whole cloth nor blindly. ...

1985 I follow
#1 #2 #4 #5 #6 #7

1993 I do not follow
#1 #9 #10 #12 #13 #14 #15

I shave the legend to its core at best.
All I'd ask is that when you say something, you back it up with a citation.

Example: "I think that Jesus was likely baptized by John the Baptist because so and so says, on pages 17-29 of his book Jesus was Left Handed (2012), that 'this pericope correlates well with what is said about John the Baptist in Josephus, War, Book 4'." (I know, it's not a deep example, but please humor me)

Do you borrow the books from the library, or do you buy them to read and internalize?

For $20-$30 (US dollars) a month (which is about how long it takes to read through a book and internalize what is said or claimed, and maybe do a little checking of sources to see if what is said is supportable) isn't really too hard to do.

Quote:
Wiki on HJ makes this claim of [the] two facts.
Wiki, while often useful, is not a credible source because anyone can edit an article at any time, representing many often contradictory points of view.

DCH

Thank You for the advise.


I understand wiki's severe shortcomings, but I happen to think most scholars do follow a HJ and of those, do you know any that would argue against his baptism in the Jordan, or his being placed on a cross by Romans?
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