Clivedurdle

Salman Rushdie asks this in Satanic Verses and I would welcome comments on how participants understand this from various theological and religious backgrounds.

I think Christianity is giving a confused picture - Satan and his cohorts punishing us sinners but being thrown into the lake of fire at the last days.

I have come across a wondrous painting from the Middle Ages of a woman with no clothes on being eaten by two demons!

Tommy

There's a charming scene at the start of Paradise Lost where the fallen angels are meeting for the first time in Pandemonium and considering retaking heaven and one demon is like "hey, maybe we should just stay here and get used to the pain and torment". Don't recall Satan being impressed.

mountainman

Subversion of the Greek "daimon" [δαίμων] in the Gospels


The Christians purposefully popularised the demonization of the Greek philosophical concept.
Philostratus appears to have copied the author of gMatthew on "bad daimons".

No one was responsible for themselves anymore.

The saving grace of the Holy Spirit was Announced to the pagan empire !!!!!.

"It is man's duty to follow his daimon,
which reflects the cosmic will.
This requires us to love humanity in general
and to act altruistically"

~ Marcus Aurelius



"A daemon is assigned to every man
At birth, to be the leader of his life".

~ Menander, via Ammianus Marcellinus




"We should think of the most authoritative part of the Soul
as a Guardian given by God which lifts us to our heavenly home."

~ Plato

Didn't Jesus go on a road trip to Hades in "The Acts of Pilate"?






εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Jaybees

That answers your question. Demons thoroughly enjoy their depravity, as Xtians of all times and places have noted. And the more souls those devils can torment, the happier they are.

Hell is the demons' heaven.

Jaybees

Come to think of it. Wouldn't masochists prefer to go to Hell rather than to Heaven?

Cheerful Charlie

Come to think of it, the Quran doesn't seem to mention demons that I can recall. It mentions djinns. The New Testament does mention demons often. But not suffering in hell, except possibly in Revelations after the defeat of Satan to come.

Cheerful Charlie

Clivedurdle

Aren't demons and djinn the same thing?

Potoooooooo

Actually they have a Hell of a good time

DCHindley

Many a critic has noted that there is a strong correlation between the demonology (the nature and function of demons) to the story of the fallen Watcher angels in the Book of Watchers (1 [Ethiopic] Enoch chapters 1-36) as well in the Parables of Enoch (1 Enoch chapters 37-71).

Look at the Gospel stories of demons being cast out of a man or men and banished to a heard of swine.

(RSV Mar 5:2) And when he had come out of the boat, there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,	(BGT Mar 5:2) καὶ ἐξελθόντος αὐτοῦ ἐκ τοῦ πλοίου εὐθὺς ὑπήντησεν αὐτῷ ἐκ τῶν μνημείων ἄνθρωπος ἐν πνεύματι ἀκαθάρτῳ,
(RSV Mar 5:5) Night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was always crying out, and bruising himself with stones.	(BGT Mar 5:5) καὶ διὰ παντὸς νυκτὸς καὶ ἡμέρας ἐν τοῖς μνήμασιν καὶ ἐν τοῖς ὄρεσιν ἦν κράζων καὶ κατακόπτων ἑαυτὸν λίθοις.
(RSV Mar 5:6) And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped him;	(BGT Mar 5:6) καὶ ἰδὼν τὸν Ἰησοῦν ἀπὸ μακρόθεν ἔδραμεν καὶ προσεκύνησεν αὐτῷ
(RSV Mar 5:7) and crying out with a loud voice, he said, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me."	(BGT Mar 5:7) καὶ κράξας φωνῇ μεγάλῃ λέγει· τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί, Ἰησοῦ υἱὲ τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ὑψίστου; ὁρκίζω σε τὸν θεόν, μή με βασανίσῃς.
(RSV Mar 5:9) And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" He replied, "My name is Legion; for we are many."	(BGT Mar 5:9) καὶ ἐπηρώτα αὐτόν· τί ὄνομά σοι; καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ· λεγιὼν ὄνομά μοι, ὅτι πολλοί ἐσμεν.
(RSV Mar 5:10) And he begged him eagerly not to send them out of the country.	(BGT Mar 5:10) καὶ παρεκάλει αὐτὸν πολλὰ ἵνα μὴ αὐτὰ ἀποστείλῃ ἔξω τῆς χώρας.
(RSV Mat 8:28) And when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demoniacs met him, coming out of the tombs, so fierce that no one could pass that way.	(BGT Mat 8:28) Καὶ ἐλθόντος αὐτοῦ εἰς τὸ πέραν εἰς τὴν χώραν τῶν Γαδαρηνῶν ὑπήντησαν αὐτῷ δύο δαιμονιζόμενοι ἐκ τῶν μνημείων ἐξερχόμενοι, χαλεποὶ λίαν, ὥστε μὴ ἰσχύειν τινὰ παρελθεῖν διὰ τῆς ὁδοῦ ἐκείνης.
(RSV Mat 8:29) And behold, they cried out, "What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"	(BGT Mat 8:29) καὶ ἰδοὺ ἔκραξαν λέγοντες· τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί, υἱὲ τοῦ θεοῦ; ἦλθες ὧδε πρὸ καιροῦ βασανίσαι ἡμᾶς;
(RSV Luk 8:27) And as he stepped out on land [of the countrside of the Gerasenes, see vs 37], there met him a man from the city who had demons; for a long time he had worn no clothes, and he lived not in a house but among the tombs.	(BGT Luk 8:27) ἐξελθόντι δὲ αὐτῷ ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν [τῆς περιχώρου τῶν Γερασηνῶν] ὑπήντησεν ἀνήρ τις ἐκ τῆς πόλεως ἔχων δαιμόνια καὶ χρόνῳ ἱκανῷ οὐκ ἐνεδύσατο ἱμάτιον καὶ ἐν οἰκίᾳ οὐκ ἔμενεν ἀλλ᾽ ἐν τοῖς μνήμασιν.
(RSV Luk 8:28) When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him, and said with a loud voice, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beseech you, do not torment me."	(BGT Luk 8:28) ἰδὼν δὲ τὸν Ἰησοῦν ἀνακράξας προσέπεσεν αὐτῷ καὶ φωνῇ μεγάλῃ εἶπεν· τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί, Ἰησοῦ υἱὲ τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ὑψίστου; δέομαί σου, μή με βασανίσῃς.
(RSV Luk 8:29) For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (For many a time it had seized him; he was kept under guard, and bound with chains and fetters, but he broke the bonds and was driven by the demon into the desert.)	(BGT Luk 8:29) παρήγγειλεν γὰρ τῷ πνεύματι τῷ ἀκαθάρτῳ ἐξελθεῖν ἀπὸ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου. πολλοῖς γὰρ χρόνοις συνηρπάκει αὐτὸν καὶ ἐδεσμεύετο ἁλύσεσιν καὶ πέδαις φυλασσόμενος καὶ διαρρήσσων τὰ δεσμὰ ἠλαύνετο ὑπὸ τοῦ δαιμονίου εἰς τὰς ἐρήμους.
(RSV Luk 8:30) Jesus then asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion"; for many demons had entered him.	(BGT Luk 8:30) ἐπηρώτησεν δὲ αὐτὸν ὁ Ἰησοῦς· τί σοι ὄνομά ἐστιν; ὁ δὲ εἶπεν· λεγιών, ὅτι εἰσῆλθεν δαιμόνια πολλὰ εἰς αὐτόν.
(RSV Luk 8:31) And they begged him not to command them to depart into the abyss.	(BGT Luk 8:31) καὶ παρεκάλουν αὐτὸν ἵνα μὴ ἐπιτάξῃ αὐτοῖς εἰς τὴν ἄβυσσον ἀπελθεῖν.

Most folks can readily see that these three versions differ in many details, but others see where they agree. Basically, there are demons or unclean spirits who are taking control of a man (or men) and causing self destructive behaviors.

Now look at the story in the Book of Watchers:

Charles 1 Enoch (Book of Watchers)	Surviving Greek version
(OTP 1EN 6:3) And Semjaza, who was their leader [of the fallen Watchers], said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.'	(OPG 1En 6:3) καὶ εἶπεν Σεμειαζᾶς πρὸς αὐτούς, ὃς ἦν ἄρχων αὐτῶν· Φοβοῦμαι μὴ οὐ θελήσετε ποιῆσαι τὸ πρᾶγμα τοῦτο, καὶ ἔσομαι ἐγὼ μόνος ὀφειλέτης ἁμαρτίας μεγάλης.
(OTP 1EN 6:4) And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.'	(OPG 1En 6:4) ἀπεκρίθησαν οὖν αὐτῷ πάντες· Ὀμόσωμεν ὅρκῳ πάντες καὶ ἀναθεματίσωμεν πάντες ἀλλήλους μὴ ἀποστρέψαι τὴν γνώμην ταύτην, μέχρις οὗ ἄν τελέσωμεν αὐτὴν καὶ ποιήσωμεν τὸ πρᾶγμα τοῦτο.
(OTP 1EN 6:5) Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it.	(OPG 1En 6:5) τότε ὤμοσαν πάντες ὁμοῦ καὶ ἀνεθεμάτισαν ἀλλήλους ἐν αὐτῷ.
(OTP 1EN 6:6) And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon ...	(OPG 1En 6:6) ἦσαν δὲ οὗτοι διακόσιοι οἱ καταβάντες ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις Ἰάρεδ εἰς τὴν κορυφὴν τοῦ Ἑρμονιεὶμ ὄρους,
(OTP 1EN 10:4) And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael ("two breasts" probably a set of mountain peaks, perhaps near Mt Hermon), and cast him therein.	(OPG 1En 10:4) καὶ τῷ Ῥαφαὴλ εἶπεν· Δῆσον τὸν Ἀζαὴλ ποσὶν καὶ χερσίν, καὶ βάλε αὐτὸν εἰς τὸ σκότος, καὶ ἄνοιξον τὴν ἔρημον τὴν οὖσαν ἐν τῷ Δαδουὴλ κἀκεῖ βάλε αὐτόν,
(OTP 1EN 10:5) And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light.	(OPG 1En 10:5) καὶ ὑπόθες αὐτῷ λίθους τραχεῖς καὶ ὀξεῖς καὶ ἐπικάλυψον αὐτῷ τὸ σκότος. καὶ οἰκησάτω ἐκεῖ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, καὶ τὴν ὄψιν αὐτοῦ πώμασον καὶ φῶς μὴ θεωρείτω·
(OTP 1EN 10:6) And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire.	(OPG 1En 10:6) καὶ ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῆς μεγάλης τῆς κρίσεως ἀπαχθήσεται εἰς τὸν ἐνπυρισμόν.
(OTP 1EN 10:11) And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness.	(OPG 1En 10:11) καὶ εἶπεν Μιχαήλ· Πορεύου καὶ δήλωσον Σεμιαζᾷ καὶ τοῖς λοιποῖς τοῖς σὺν αὐτῷ ταῖς γυναιξὶν μιγεῖσιν, μιανθῆναι ἐν αὐταῖς ἐν ἀκαθαρσίᾳ αὐτῶν·
(OTP 1EN 10:12) And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated.	(OPG 1En 10:12) καὶ ὅταν κατασφαγῶσιν οἱ υἱοὶ αὐτῶν καὶ ἴδωσιν τὴν ἀπώλειαν τῶν ἀγαπητῶν, καὶ δῆσον αὐτοὺς ἑβδομήκοντα γενεὰς εἰς τὰς νάπας τῆς γῆς μέχρι ἡμέρας κρίσεως αὐτῶν καὶ συντελεσμοῦ, ἕως τελεσθῇ τὸ κρίμα τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων.
(OTP 1EN 10:13) In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever.	(OPG 1En 10:13) τότε ἀπαχθήσονται εἰς τὸ χάος τοῦ πυρὸς καὶ εἰς τὴν βάσανον καὶ εἰς τὸ δεσμωτήριον συνκλείσεως αἰῶνος.

The parallels between men being driven by demons/unclean spirits to live in (the darkness of) tombs and nighttime howling and harming themselves with (sharp and jagged?) stones, and worrying excessively about being tormented "before the appointed time" and cast into the depths (of the earth, or the lake of fire?)

If one won't consider it unless it is mentioned in the Parables of Enoch, see this:

(OTP 1EN 54:1 [Enoch's visions called the Parables]) And I looked and turned to another part of the earth, and saw there a deep valley with burning fire. 3 And there mine eyes saw how they made these their instruments, iron chains of immeasurable weight. 4) And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: 'For whom are these chains being prepared?' 5) And he said unto me: 'These are being prepared for the hosts of Azazel, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded.

(OTP 1EN 55:4) Ye mighty kings who dwell on the earth, ye shall have to behold Mine Elect One, how he sits on the throne of glory and judges Azazel, and all his associates, and all his hosts in the name of the Lord of Spirits.'

(OTP 1EN 68:2 [Noah's vision attached to the end of the Enoch's visions in the Parables]) And on that day Michael answered Raphael and said: 'The power of the spirit transports and makes me to tremble because of the severity of the judgement of the secrets, the judgement of the angels: who can endure the severe judgement which has been executed, and before which they melt away?

(OTP 1EN 69:2a) And behold the names of those angels
(OTP 1EN 69:4-13) 4 The name of the first Jeqon: that is, the one who led astray [[all]] the sons of God, and brought them down to the earth, and led them astray through the daughters of men.
5 And the second was named Asbeel: he imparted to the holy sons of God evil counsel, and led them astray so that they defiled their bodies with the daughters of men.
6 And the third was named Gadreel: he it is who showed the children of men all the blows of death, and he led astray Eve, and showed [[the weapons of death to the sons of men]] the shield and the coat of mail, and the sword for battle, and all the weapons of death to the children of men. 7 And from his hand they have proceeded against those who dwell on the earth from that day and for evermore.
8 And the fourth was named Penemue: he taught the children of men the bitter and the sweet, and he taught them all the secrets of their wisdom. 9 And he instructed mankind in writing with ink and paper, and thereby many sinned from eternity to eternity and until this day. 10 For men were not created for such a purpose, to give confirmation to their good faith with pen and ink. 11 For men were created exactly like the angels, to the intent that they should continue pure and righteous, and death, which destroys everything, could not have taken hold of them, but through this their knowledge they are perishing, and through this power it is consuming me.
12 And the fifth was named Kasdeja: this is he who showed the children of men all the wicked smitings of spirits and demons, and the smitings of the embryo in the womb, that it may pass away, and [[the smitings of the soul]] the bites of the serpent, and the smitings which befall through the noontide heat, the son of the serpent named Taba'et.
13 And this is the task of [the sixth angel] Kasbeel, the chief of the oath which he showed to the holy ones when he dwelt high above in glory, and its name is Biqa.

69:2b [[and these are their names:
the first of them is Samjaza,
the second Artaqifa,
and the third Armen,
the fourth Kokabel,
the fifth Turael,
the sixth Rumjal,
the seventh Danjal,
the eighth Neqael,
the ninth Baraqel,
the tenth Azazel,
the eleventh Armaros,
the twelfth Batarjal,
the thirteenth Busasejal,
the fourteenth Hananel,
the fifteenth Turel,
and the sixteenth Simapesiel,
the seventeenth Jetrel,
the eighteenth Tumael,
the nineteenth Turel,
the twentieth Rumael,
the twenty-first Azazel.
(OTP 1EN 69:3) And these are the chiefs of their angel's and their names, and their chief ones over hundreds and over fifties and over tens]].

[We should expect then the chief of the entire 200 (1) plus their chief ones over hundreds (2) and over fifties (4) plus those over tens (20), for a total of 27. As the above list has 21, but if we add the six from 69:4-13, and we get 27].

I guess this makes these stories in the gospels allude to the punishments being and in future will also be, doled out upon the fallen watchers.


DCH

DCHindley

Waaaiiittt a minute!! Isn't that devil dood Tony Stark from Stark Industries?

DCH