Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Grumpy · 02-24-2003, 03:25 PM

This item in the II Newswire prompted guffaws and groans. Human Events asked U.S. Senators if they would confirm an atheist to the Supreme Court. For the record:

Robert Bennett (R-UT) yes,
Orrin Hatch (R-UT) yes,
John Kyl (R-AZ) yes,
Ben Nelson (D-ND) depends

James Inhofe (R-OK) no,
John McCain (R-AZ) no,
Zell Miller (D-GA) no,
Don Nickles (R-OK) no

Most of them laughed at the very idea.

Hatch tried to be even handed, but still bumbled:

Quote:

[H.E.]The Declaration of Independence says that our rights come from God. Can someone who rejects that premise still be able to�

Hatch: Well again, you can be an atheist without rejecting that premise.

Not any atheist I know, Orrin. But you can't blame him; he probably isn't too friendly with many atheists. Kyl obviously has the same problem, or else he wouldn't say stuff like this:

Quote:

...it�s probably an impossibility that someone would believe exactly as Clarence Thomas and yet could still be an atheist.

Max Cleland (D-GA), Tim Johnson (D-SD), and Paul Sarbanes (D-MD) didn't answer the question. Why did Human Events report these non-responses? Clearly, to advance their mission statement: To make Democrats look like clowns. (The item is undated; it appears to be from the Pledge flap last July.)

BTW, Chief Justice William Howard Taft was a Unitarian, which comes close, though I don't think he ever considered himself an atheist.

Toto · 02-24-2003, 03:57 PM

I thought Bennett's answer was quite intelligent. I also think that Sarbanes' "answer" (ignorning the question and getting into the nearest elevator) also showed some intelligence, since the question is a no-win one for any politician. I was disappointed that none of them pointed out that the Constitution says there shall be no religious test for public office.

hezekiah jones · 02-25-2003, 05:28 AM

I strongly suspect Richard Posner is an atheist. Assuming he is, these clowns would reject one of the most accomplished judges in the country simply because he doesn't believe in god? That's pretty pathetic.

nogods4me · 02-25-2003, 06:33 AM

All the quotes that I have seen have led me to believe that James Madison opposed the appointment of the congressional chaplains, especially since they were being paid with public monies. Yet the article states that Madison was in favor of the chaplains. Perhaps one of our more erudite members should send them an email correcting their error. Though I doubt they would admit to the mistake.

Toto · 02-25-2003, 10:18 AM

Chaplains and Congress: An Overview from 1774 to early 1800's

Quote:

James Madison was a member of the committee of the First Congress which planned the Chaplaincy system in 1789, even though he claims that he opposed such a system at that time. (See Chief Justice Burger, I Would Like You to Meet Mr. Madison. ) In his recently published Detached Memoranda, (the manuscript was discovered in 1946 and published in 1950. See Excerpts from Madison's Detached Memoranda.) Madison definitely came out against the system. He asked whether the fact that the Chaplains were paid by "the nation" did not involve the principle of establishment forbidden by the Bill of Rights, and also whether, since some groups like Catholics and Quakers could scarcely be elected to the office, the provision of chaplains by a majority vote were not a palpable violation of civil rights and unfair to minorities." (Church and State in the United States Vol I page 456, by Anson Phelps Stokes) (Those same points are the same points that are important today, in regards to vouchers, some forms of prayer in schools, etc and religious displays on government property.)

See also this rebuttal to the same argument on Hannity's inteview with Newdow

You should note that the first Congressional Chaplains were hired by committees of the House and Senate before the First Amendment was in effect, and there were no grounds to object to them.

A longer quote from the Detached Memorandum (undated):

Quote:

Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation?

The establishment of the chaplainship to Congs. is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority shut the door of worship agst the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics & Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain! To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the evil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers or that the major sects have a tight to govern the minor.

Grumpy · 02-25-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
I was disappointed that none of them pointed out that the Constitution says there shall be no religious test for public office.

FWIW, Bennett said there "should be no" such test. Perhaps that's what he had in mind.

pug846 · 02-26-2003, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hezekiah jones
I strongly suspect Richard Posner is an atheist. Assuming he is, these clowns would reject one of the most accomplished judges in the country simply because he doesn't believe in god? That's pretty pathetic.

Bah, you beat me too it. I'm almost certain Posner is an atheist.

I'm assuming they are theist, but what about Breyer and Ginsburg? Do they anywhere state they are religious? I would be shocked if there haven't been quite a few atheist Supreme Court Justices and I know Breyer and Ginsburg are "friendly" to some of Posner's more controversial views on Constituional theory and (possibly) ethics.

edited to add: I can�t find anywhere that Ginsburg is a practicing Jew; a large portion of Jews would probably consider themselves atheist, but keep the label �Jew� for other reasons. (Nearly the entire side of my Jewish family calls themselves Jewish, yet nearly all of them are atheists.)

The only thing I could find on Breyer was that his parents raised him Jewish, but they didn�t really stress faith. I found this blurb, �Breyer married Joanna in England in an Anglican ceremony, carefully edited to remove references to Christ.�

crownboy · 03-12-2003, 07:58 PM

Why exactly do you guys think Posner is an atheist? I'm a little ignorant on the issue I guess.

My hunch is Breyer is the closest to being an atheist. IIRC, Felix Frankfurter may also have been one.

03-12-2003, 08:40 PM

[joking]Yer goddamn right no bodies from my state woud vizote for an anthiest! Them peoples is bad and they actually have all their teeth![/joking]

Yeah whatever... I still like living in Oklahoma :P

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02-24-2003, 03:57 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I thought Bennett's answer was quite intelligent. I also think that Sarbanes' "answer" (ignorning the question and getting into the nearest elevator) also showed some intelligence, since the question is a no-win one for any politician. I was disappointed that none of them pointed out that the Constitution says there shall be no religious test for public office.

02-25-2003, 05:28 AM	#3
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	I strongly suspect Richard Posner is an atheist. Assuming he is, these clowns would reject one of the most accomplished judges in the country simply because he doesn't believe in god? That's pretty pathetic.

02-25-2003, 06:33 AM	#4
nogods4me Contributor Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 17,432	All the quotes that I have seen have led me to believe that James Madison opposed the appointment of the congressional chaplains, especially since they were being paid with public monies. Yet the article states that Madison was in favor of the chaplains. Perhaps one of our more erudite members should send them an email correcting their error. Though I doubt they would admit to the mistake.

03-12-2003, 07:58 PM	#8
crownboy Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NYC, New York Posts: 114	Why exactly do you guys think Posner is an atheist? I'm a little ignorant on the issue I guess. My hunch is Breyer is the closest to being an atheist. IIRC, Felix Frankfurter may also have been one.

03-12-2003, 08:40 PM	#9
fuct_okc Guest Posts: n/a	[joking]Yer goddamn right no bodies from my state woud vizote for an anthiest! Them peoples is bad and they actually have all their teeth![/joking] Yeah whatever... I still like living in Oklahoma :P

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