davidH

Before I begin.
If I explain what the Bible states will happen in the future (which I believe to be our near future)
if you were to see it come true would you believe in the Bible and that God is real?
I'm not talking about a vague prophecy or anything like that - but a detailed account of a war that the Bible says will happen.

If you were to see that fufilled would you believe or not?

Darwin's Finch

Give us your specific, unambiguous prophecy and we'll let you know. (Please tell me you're not going to spew Revelation at us.)

David Johnson

Of course - but please do not bore me with the rumors of war and pestilence thing for there have always been rumors of war and pestilence. As to whether Phophecy coming true, I think that is about as likely as Jesus' promise that (Matt 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom). He was wrong then and I suspect he will be wrong this time also.

davidH

lol, no it isn't revelation. Don't worry that's kinda complicated!

By the way as an aside - Jesus wasn't wrong. You have to understand what he was talking about. Start another topic and I'll answer it there cause I don't want to get too side tracked here in this topic. Thanks.

Darwin's Finch

Well?

critical thinking made ez

I couldn't believe because the only end time prophecy that gives detail was to occur within 1 generation of the time of Jesus. In Acts Chapter 2, the Apostles thought it was happening at that time so even they knew and expected it was to be in that generation, no room for error on which generation unless Jesus lied to them or they can't be trusted with any other information or writings (all of the new testament).

When the moon and sun didn't change in that generation and no return of Jesus, it made that a false prophecy and we are to stone whoever gave those to us...

I think that would be Joel, Jesus, and John.

So I second Darwin's Finch's request for the prophecy you refer to. Maybe I missed something on my last Bible read through.

[ January 06, 2002: Message edited by: critical thinking made ez ]</p>

davidH

hang on a sec. I have to go here. - Been called off every time!
I'll be back in half an hour.

davidH

yo, about the generation thing - it's also another word for race.

But that is another topic altogether.

Right, the prophecy I refer to is maybe one that you haven't come across for a while. It's found in Ezekiel chapter 38 + 39.

This prophecy I think you will agree isn't vague at all. Well, I wouldn't call it vague anyway.
I'm not really sure how to begin here - I don't want to write out the whole 2 chapters because it would take too long - so I'm assuming you all have access to a Bible. I use the NIV version.

ok, I think I will begin by interpreting it from my point of view.

chpt 38 verses 1-6.
These verses give the names of various peoples and I will give you the places where they lived.

Magog was the second son of Japeth who, according to Josephus the great Historian, settled North of the Black sea.

Tubal and Meshech were the fifth and sixth sons of Japheth, whose descendants settled south of the Black sea.

Several historians (Pliny, Josephus, Herodotus and others) point out that they were also known as the Scythians.

Now to the identity of Gog.
Ezek. 39 v 2 God says to Gog,

All Bible directions are given in relation to Israel and so North means north of Israel.
Note the "far north".
Could that possibly mean Russia? Russia is indeed to the far north of Israel, any map will show that.
The fact that Magog settled north of the Black sea can only further make me assume that Gog must refer to modern day Russia.
So for the moment I will believe Gog to be Russia.

Now to the identity of Gog's allies that are mentioned here.
38 v 5,6

The invading armies from the south are joined by invading armies from the south.

Persia, Cush (upper nile region so prehaps Ethiopia), Put (Libya), Gomer (thought to be Turkey),Beth Togarmah (present day Armenia).

The one thing that catches my attention here is that all of this southern countries are Arab muslim countries. We know how they feel about the Jewish people.
But that isn't all v6 ".....- the many nations with you." Maybe that means more nations or maybe it's just refering that all those nations are many with Gog.

The prophecy says that they will advance like a storm and will be like a cloud covering the land.

Then in chapter 38 v 18 an account of that day is given.
Gog will attack Israel. (before I go on I want you to recall verse 13.) I believe this verse symbolises the western world - all they do is send a deligation - they offer no military help to Israel.

On that day God says that his anger will be aroused and on that day that they attack there will be a great earthquake in the land of Israel.
So great will it be that even the mountains will be overturned. v 20.
v22 God will then bring the plagues on the armies, he will rain down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulphur on them all.

In doing so God says,v23

Chapter 39 - goes into a bit more detail of after the war.

39 v 4 - "The armies will fall on the mountains of Israel."
"You will fall in the open field.."

No matter where these troops are they will not be able to escape the judgement of the Lord when he defends Israel.

39 v 9 , "Then all those that live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up...for 7 years they will use them as fuel."

Obviously u can't burn steal and metal, but they could use fuel in the many many vechiles that would have been used.
Also an interesting fact,that might be worth a look into is that for some years the Russians have been using Lignostone in the manufacture of weapons. Lignostone, invented by a Dutchman in Ter Apel, is a special kind of wood used for "coke breakers". Aparently its stronger than steel, is very elastic and burns better than coal.
I haven't researched the details of this yet but it may be worth pondering.

v12 - the invading armies were so big that Israel will have to spend 7 months burying them in order to cleanse the land.

v11 - they will be buried in a valley which those that go east towards the sea and so block their route.

When does the Bible say they will come against Israel?

It will indeed be a big army that comes against Israel and it will come against them when they least suspect it to (v11).

v 8 God talking to Gog,

In future years..
land that has recovered from war..
whose people where gathered from many nations..

Interesting that.This prophecy also contians a fulfilled prophecy - people gathered from many nations. I believe that happened when Israel returned to its homeland.

While I'm on this subject in the "olden days" whenever a land was invaded they would have all been carried off by the nation that attacked them and would have remained in that nation as slaves for that nation. Note the plural "nations" that's exactly where all the Jews came from.

Interestingly the chapter 37 is all about this coming back for the Jews.

One thing about this prophecy - most of the conditions are right for this event to take place in our time now. The tensions have risen amoung the arab muslims and the Jews and the land has had 3 major wars between the neigbouring countries.
However I think that there remains possibly one more thing that remains to be met.

At the end of verse 8

we have not yet seen a resolution to the crisis there between the Palestinians and the Jews yet. The Jews do not yet live in saftey.

v11
I personally think that that remains to be fulfilled and once it has, then the war could take place at any time.

So at the present time there remains one barrier as it were, till the prophecy comes to pass - peace. All other aspects have been fulfilled though impossible they may have been to be fulfilled.

You know that many Christians before 1950 wondered about this prophecy because there was no nation of Israel then. The Jews had been scattered everywhere and it could hardly seem possible or even likely to happen. Yet the prophecy in the Bible required it to happen otherwise God would have lied. And yet thousand years (basically 2000) after they were scattered by the Romans the nation of Israel was re established.

The next part of the prophecy
v 8

After 3 wars with the Arabs they have had no more, the land seems to have recovered from war but yet not completely until the 3rd part is fulfilled and there is peace.

But one thing I emphasise, and it's God speaking in verse 8 of chapter 39


Yes, amen to that.

This day is coming and it will come soon. I believe we are in the last times that the Bible speaks about.
The world is moving and setting the stage for a one world ruler, you have heard about the Euro. A binding of the whole of Europe.
Slowly it is coming but it will come.

One thing I say. I'm not sure when this war will happen, whether it's before the rapture, whether it's during the reign of the antichrist (one world ruler).
But there is so much to say about what the Bible says is to come. Believe me, it will all come true. I just pray that when u see these events taking place that you realise that the Bible is true and that there is a God.

I see nothing vague in this prophecy - in fact it couldn't be clearer. To be able to tell what countries will attack, what will happen to them, that Israel will recover from war and be at peace.
No it is a clear prophecy.

The question remains - if this does come true will you be prepared to believe?

Read through the chapters yourselves and make your own opinion on what I have interpreted.

GunnerJ

Yes, this prophesy is clear... clearly self-fulfilling.

Frankly, I'm less than impressed by the Jews thousands of years ago prophesying that they will have their Promised Land again, and then, in the modern age, doing it themselves. Any "prophesy" made by a group which can fulfill it themsleves is suspect. Especially when the time in which is occurs is left open. I mean, really, "in future years?" How many wars could occur "in future years" after which the Jews would have an opportunity to rebuild their homeland?

What would have been more impressive is the Bible predicting an event at a specific date that couldn't be reproduced by the descendants of the prophets... say, "1000 years from now, a large rock shall striketh the moon on its south side with a great fire." And, sure eonough, 1000 years after the prophet lives, a meteor hits the moon near its south pole. THAT is what's meant by a non-vague prophesy.

You attempts to justify the burning of weapons is particularly weak. If they meant fuel, wouldn't they have described vehicles that used them? Something like, "They burned the blood of the metal beasts for years?" Tanks and humvees are weapons. The fuel that runs them are not. Until more details come forward about those Russian weapons, the simplest explaination was that the mindset of the times in which the prophet lived made the idea of burning weapons for fuel plausible because of the many pikes and arrows made form wood.

The rest it just your own interpretations of vague symbolism. I see a lot of "I thinks..." about what certain passages mean. A clear, non-vague prophesy wouldn't require your opinion, its meaning would be, well, obvious. Not easily twisted to fit the geopolitical situations in which you make your own interpretations.

Amos

[QUOTE]Originally posted by davidH:
[QB]

It would not surprise me a bit if they make this prophesy come true. The fundamentalist Jews are, and always were, mesmerized by the bible and brown-nosing protestant fundies are eager to help them achieve this goal.