Soul Invictus

Anyone care to expound on the original concepts or meanings behind savior, messiah, and Lord. (example to have a God and a Lord)

Peter Kirby

The Greek word for savior is swthr. It is defined as "saviour, preserver, deliverer" by Feyerabend.

In the New Testament, it is sometimes applied to God (1 Tim 1:1, 1 Tim 2:3, 1 Tim 4:10, Titus 1:3, Titus 2:10) and sometimes applied to Jesus (Titus 1:4, Luke 2:11, John 4:42, Acts 5:31, Acts 13:23, 2 Pet 1:1, 2 Pet 1:11, 2 Pet 2:20).

Before I go on to accumulate more data, could you let me know exactly what it is you want to know? For example, is this concerning a debate about John 20:28?

best,
Peter Kirby

Soul Invictus

Yes, that verse is a focal point surrounding my inquiry. How did you know?

Soul Invictus

Question number 1. How did you type those symbols?

Okay now to a more relevant issue. I am concerning myself with understanding how terms/titles in the original Hebrew/Aramaic texts were initially intended to signify...literal vs figurative concepts and the like...

What was the dominating idea of the culture of what messiah and savior connoted. Also how Babylonian, Egyptian, and Sumerian influences affected the terms as well, in reference to how those societies viewed the Godbody and necessity for different titles, such as some that were given as reverence and not to be spoken (Elohim,YHWH, ideologies) Hopefully you can decipher the jist of what I'm getting at. Basically how does how the conventional Biblical text (KJV primarily is what I'm only familiar with) thoughts compare to how the original culture's language accounted for it.

Even to the adam really signifying adamah, or earth and not an actual person. (There is no Adam/Eve story in the original text, correct? This is one example. Then there's the thou shalt not kill/murder inquiry.)

I know my requests aren't lucid, but again, hopefully you can see where I'm going.

Peter Kirby

[ FONT = symbol ] anqrwpoV [ /FONT ]

Remove the spaces and you get:

anqrwpoV

You will get the English characters if you don't have the Symbol font installed.

One web site that I have found to be helpful is the one on Divine Mediator Figures.

Glenn Miller has some data on the primary sources at his Messianic Expectations in 1st Century Judaism web page.

I also have a stack of books on the subject of the Jewish Messiah, but I don't think people read books these days!

best,
Peter Kirby

Evangelion

Saviour: someone who saves. Not necessarily God.

For example:

• II Kings 13:5.
  And the LORD gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.
  
• Nehemiah 9:27.
  Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
  
• Isaiah 19:20.
  And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
  
• Obadiah 1:21.
  And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

The use of this same word in the NT is consistent with its use in the OT.


Messiah: "anointed", or "anointed one." It is applied to Jesus , to the kings of Israel, to the high priests, and also to Cyrus (king of Persia.) Its use in the NT (where it appears as "Christos") is consistent with its use in the OT.


Lord: somewhat more complicated, since there are three main Hebrew words which the KJV has translated as "LORD", "Lord", and "lord", respectively.

• The first is Yahweh, which is (a) the Name of God (also known as the Tetragrammaton), (b) reserved for God and His representative angel, and (c) never applied to mortal men. The KJV translates it as "LORD", and sometimes (though rarely) as "GOD", in cases where it is preceded by Adonai.
  
• The second is Adonai, which is (a) reserved for God and His representative angel, and (b) never applied to mortal men. The KJV translates it as "Lord."
  
• The third is adon (sometimes written as adoni), which is used about 195 times in the OT, and applied to mortal men, angels, and God. The vast majority of cases refer to mortal men, and the KJV translates it as "lord."

In the NT, all of these Hebrew words are replaced by the single Greek word kyrious (kyrious.) But the NT writers maintain the distinction between Yahweh and Jesus by taking care never to apply any OT passage which speaks of Yahweh, to Jesus himself. To the 1st Century Christians, therefore, Jesus was "Lord", but not literally God.


God: usually elohim in Hebrew; theos in Greek. Both words were used in reference to mortal men, the God of Israel, and pagan deities. The use of theos in the NT is consistent with the use of elohim in the OT.

It is important to remember that the ancients used such terms in the context of representation and agency. A man could speak on behalf of a god as if he was that god, even to the extent of performing miraculous works and exercising divine privilege.

Thus, in the words of Dr James McGrath (Butler University, Indianapolis):

• If a king wanted to make peace with another nation, he did not go in person - or at least not in the first instance - but sent his ambassador. When a wealthy person wanted to arrange a property purchase or sale in another region, he sent a representative. When God wanted to address his people, he sent a prophet or an angel. Agency was an important part of everyday life in the ancient world.
  
  Now there were certain basic rules or assumptions connected with agency in the ancient world. The most basic of all was that, in the words of later Jewish rabbis: “The one sent is like the one who sent him” (cf. Mek.Ex. 12:3,6; m. Ber. 5:5). Or, in words which are probably better known to those of us familiar with the New Testament, “He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives not me but the one who sent me” (Matt. 10:40). These are words which the Gospels record Jesus as saying to his apostles, and ‘apostle’ is simply the Greek word for ‘one who is sent’, an ‘agent.’
  
  When someone sent an agent, the agent was given the full authority of the sender to speak and act on his behalf. If the agent made an agreement, it was completely binding, as if the person who sent him had made it in person. Conversely, if someone rejected an agent he rejected the one who sent him. The agent was thus functionally equal or equivalent to the one who sent him, precisely because he was subordinate and obedient to, and submitted to the will of, him who sent him.

It was in this way that Jesus represented the God of Israel to the world in which he lived.

Soul Invictus

Yes, are you able to add insight about this debate? I'm not familiar with it.

Peter Kirby

ἀπεκρίθη θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου.

There is a relevant text in The Lives of the Caesars of Suetonius on Domitian.

Perseus
pari arrogantia, cum procuratorum suorum nomine formalem dictaret epistulam, sic coepit: 'dominus et deus noster hoc fieri iubet.' unde institutum posthac, ut ne scripto quidem ac sermone cuiusquam appellaretur aliter.

Translation
Just as arrogantly he began a letter, which his agents were to circulate, with the words: 'Our Lord and God instructs you to do this!' and 'Lord and God' became his regular title both in writing and conversation.

Domitian was emperor from 81 to 96 CE and was the first to be deified during his lifetime. If John 20:28 was written around this time, it is easy to see the author as making a claim for Jesus comparable to the apotheosis of the emperor.

best,
Peter Kirby

Soul Invictus

You know any other languages outside English?

Peter Kirby

I took three years of Spanish in high school and a summer course in classical Greek at UC Irvine. I don't know know Latin except to recognize some words, but I am able to read Greek with a dictionary.

In this case, "dominus et deus noster" = "our lord and god."

best,
Peter Kirby