echidna

Yes.

Personally whether it's there or not, I find the concept useful to maintain a little humility, for exactly the reasons you state.

The same way that it's useful to imagine viewing one's actions from the outside, the concept of a God can be a handy way of checking one's behaviour from time to time.

A couple of other benefits I think, are simply the concept of a moral ideal (whether or not it actually exists) may exist, and also the fact that at the end of the day, the universe does appear to be incredibly counter-intuitive from time to time.

Sephiroth

Interesting. I'm sure that many thinking people doubt what they believe at one time or another. If atheism is arrogance then the idea that god created this world strictly for humans is super-arrogance. I don't and I doubt that most atheists do. I actually wouldn't have a problem living in a Monarchy provided the monarch is effective and benevolent so, I hate to say, but these lines so far seem to be alot like apolegetic emoting. That is unproven? Maybe you should try agnosticism first (which I'm not). It is, but atheists don't, I'm afraid this argument gets another 0. We know that we're just another part of nature that has no special intentions for us, unlike theists. You're sounding dangerously Christian/Muslim . There's Deism, and unlike most theists, Deists don't pretend to know what god is like. Deism and agnosticism, I guess. Sure, although it depends somewhat on the religion and how you take it. Good luck.

[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: Sephiroth ]</p>

scarmig

Sounds like your gravitating towards Deism. Nothing wrong with that!

There's a higher power, I can't name it, or know it, so all organized religions are bunk, it may be as simple as chaos, and maybe chaos is just Order that I can't perceive. Either way It is in control, not me, but since IT cannot be known or understood for certain, It cannot be worshipped for certain.

DarkBronzePlant

It's not wierd to doubt your belief, or lack of belief, in anything. The notion of atheism eing a result of arrogance seems a little wierd to me, though. Would not believing in trolls be out of arrogance as well?
Do you mean that mankind wants to be all-powerful? I think that's the direction that humankind, in general, is striving towards. I don't think that anyone expects humans to become "all-powerful". I think atheism is basically irrelevant to that notion. Plenty of atheists I know, for example, would love for humankind to stop with the push towards progress, and just live hunbly and harmoniously with the rest of the animals, and nature.

From my point of view, man created god in his image, and this represents the human desire to become god.
I do none of that. Lots of atheists do none of that. When it comes to atheism, what I hate is simply being forced, or pressured, to live my life according the rules of some god that to me is inarguably non-existent. I don't work hard to come up with ways to dismiss a higher power. And quite frankly, anyone who does that is a complete fool. Let's say good evidence came to light that strongly suggested the existence of an all-powerful god. Which would be smarter for me to do: ignore the evidence and make up reasons as to why I shouldn't believe in said god, or humbly submit to said god, follow his rules, and try my damnest to get into heaven? I think I would be a complete fool to opt for the former.
I guess it comes down to semantics, but I absolutely believe that there are higher powers than humankind. Are they intelligent? I guess it depends on how you define intelligence. And even if you completely believe in the existence of an intelligent agent that is on a higher level than humans, which intelligent agent is it? Why?
Me too. And I don't think I know anyone who suggests that.
Well, I gotta say, if this is the only thing that makes you an atheist, than you probably do need to do some "soul-searching"...
Absolutely. First of all, there's no reason in the world why you need to fit your beliefs into any pre-existing beliefs. If you don't believe in any particular god, but still believe that there is some higher intelligence out there, then go ahead and believe that. Trying to force yourself to believe otherwise will get you nowhere, and would be pointless.

Walross

Hello SirenSpeak,

I just wanted to address a couple of the things you wrote:

This is actually a pet peeve of mine. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard atheists being accused of arrogance...well, I'd have a few dollars anyway. Seriously though, for most of us, atheism is the result of having a properly skeptical attitude. Skepticism grows out of our acknowledgement of just how incredibly easy it is for humans (including ourselves) to be wrong about things. Contrary to it being arrogant, I find this to be a rather humble attitude.

Let me put it another way: it is not arrogant to refuse to jump to a conclusion based on insufficient or nonexistent evidence - it is prudent.

As someone else said, having doubts about your basic worldview is not only natural, but healthy and a good sign that you are a thinking being. Don't be afraid to doubt.

The only one who can give someone or something sovereignty over you is you. This applies not only to other people, but to all manner of deities as well. Even if some creator god did exist, this doesn't automatically imply that obedience to such a being is a necessity or even desirable. I would hope that, in such an unlikely event, you would still use reason and follow your conscience rather than just blindly obey. In any case, I may hate the idea of someone or something having authority over me, but that is independent of the fact that I am simply unable to believe in something without a compelling reason to do so.

I don't mean to bite your head off here, SirenSpeak. I often go through some of these very same doubts and thoughts. I suspect that it's mostly due to living in a society where the same memes are transmitted over and over again - sometimes they're hard to ignore. Regards,

Walross

[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: Walross ]</p>

Godless Dave

In don't suggest that we're responsible for everything in the world, and I'm not subsituting humans for god(s). I maintain we don't need gods at all. I think you're confusing atheism (there are no gods) with hubris (I'm as powerful as the gods).

Of course there are things more powerful than us. My body could be ripped limb from limb by a tornado. I could slowly kill myself by becoming addicted to the smoke of a certain plant. I could ride my bike off a cliff. I don't call nature a "higher" power, because it's not conscious. But of course we are part of nature and it has power over us. I guess your concept could help you keep a sense of proportion and humility. Personally I get that by looking at the night sky.

Abacus

I disagree. I don't think it is arrogant to disbelieve in something for which we haven't a shred of evidence. Is it arrogant to disbelieve in Santa Claus?

PJPSYCO

As the other posters have already said atheism is not arrogant.
Let's look at religion, and this God. We see that God is the personification of megalomania. God is the most powerful thing in the universe, and it is a person. In christianity, you strive to be God. You are suppposed to desire to be this all controling force that tells everything what to do. That is arrogance.
We see with atheists on the other hand, a completely different way of going about it. We say that we are part of the universe. Every part has it's place, no part is any better or any worse. Everything is equal. There is no better than. Atheists also concede that they do not control the universe something that the religous quite explicitely claim to do. So, if we're talking arrogant I'd say let's talk about the people that say they control the universe, and strive to be its master, the religous, and not those who are just part of the whole, atheists.

Pseudonymph

Thanks all for the replies...
and no Sephiroth I'm not christian/muslim...lol.
I can see why you may think that though.

I didnt mean to imply that atheist PEOPLE are arrogant, merely that the idea that we are in total control of our lives...that to me is sort of arrogant. We as humans(esp. atheists) are control freaks!

I remember as a small child watching ant farms and wondering if they were aware that they were in a farm, and that I was watching them. After, with no God creating us, we are no different than ants! This is kind of a weird thing to say but do you see my point?

I realize that I will never know if "God" exists. That isnt really what I'm concerned with. I just want to be careful and not look for God just because I think there must be something to separate us from the animals.

I understand what you're saying elwood. I agree actually, if there is a God...why would he care if we worship him? or give hiim the time of day?


by monkey bot
Actually I dont know what I think here. Why would a God create something only to piss off about it? and pay it no attention at the very least? What else would God have to do?

by echidna
I agree, however...I cant stand "sunday morning believers" they go to church on sunday..."punch in" and be good little Godly people...then when church is over they "punch out" and do whatever they want throughout the week, as long as there off the clock. Ignoring the ways they should be living.

by sephiroth
Actually, I've never met a christian who thought this.

by Dark bronze planet

yes thats what I meant. And thats my point...it seems that people want to become God, in order to have all control in there hands.

for example evolution...this theory denies any higher power aka God. Its either one or the other, natural or designed.

certainly not...I like atheism because it appeals to my curious nature, my desire for real answers. Something I can see to believe, and spit on if I dont agree with. Does that make sense?

by walross
Sorry...I know pet peeves suck! But this is what I see too. A lot of people here were surprised that I said that, and that surprised ME. because I've heard it lots of times.
Maybe its because some atheists come off as having all the answers. when really, none of us do.


thanks for the encouragement! But even though I'm not afraid to doubt, I am afraid of where it may lead me...you know? But to deny it is to deny why I am doubting in the first place. So, none of that!

You didnt bite my head off at all! Your reply was very helpful and I appreciate that. And yes oh yes I see what you mean about the SAME THING happening so many times.

by PJPSYCO
Very true...but sometimes I feel we let our anger towards theism and such get the best of us, and we dont always do things that way. Many of us have had bad expieriences(sp) with religion, so we let our personal anger lead to a sometimes pretty severe lack of decorum. Not everyone, always of course, but I think all of us, like any other human, make these mistakes at least once or so.

Thank you all again for your support and ideas. It means more than you know.

DarkBronzePlant

Ahem... that's Dark Bronze Plant, thank you very much!
Then I think we agree there... I wouldn't quite phrase it as humans wanting to become God, but certainly humankind in general wanting as much power and control as possible. I think that's a characteristic of, well, human nature.

I think there as an important point to keep in mind here. In the case of evolution, most if not all contributors to its study are not trying hard to dismiss a higher power. That is not their goal. No one is saying, "Damn, I really don't like this god concept! I really must try to find or create any bit of evidence against it that I can!"

Just because someone studies a topic that seems to contradict the existence of a higher power, or believes something that has a similar contradiction, does not mean that that person is trying to dismiss the idea of god. I find evidence that supports evolution, so I believe it happened. I find no evidence that god exists, so I don't believe in god. If I found good evidence that god exists, I would likely believe in god's existence. Simple as that. I'm not trying to disbelieve in god. It just happens based on avilable evidence.
That's good. Reading back over your post, I think I may have misinterpreted what you'd originally said there.

Anyhow, despite my countering some of the finer points of your thread, I can't see why having any of the concerns you do is anything bad.