flurpy2

Found this compelling arguments for god's existence at http://home.mindspring.com/~apostle2/35proofs.htm

1 The cosmologic argument, or the argument from effect to cause. Every building is proof of the existence of a master builder or an architect. The cosmos is this building.

2 The argument from the existence of the notion of God in our minds. We do not have in our minds any concept that is not a true or deformed reflection of reality. If God had never been perceived, the notion could not have penetrated and anchored so tenaciously in the human mind.

3 The teleologic argument. All things in this world tend toward a purpose--the embryo in the womb, the seeds, the solar system, symbiosis (complementary activities) between unrelated species.

4 The historic argument. Earliest archeological records have shown the existence of religious belief. In history there is a natural selection of ideas. What is unfit is discarded. The persistence of the notion of God despite millenniums of social change proves its value.


5 The moral argument. If only the smartest and physically fittest survive, how is it that love and meekness, and mercy survive?
How is it that there is a conscience?

6 The argument from movement. Perpetual motion is impossible. Everything in the universe is in constant motion. There must be an agent which started and maintains the movement.

7 The argument from prophecies. The Bible presents long-term detailed time foretelling of events, most of which have been fulfilled, esp. concerning the birth, life, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The unfulfilled prophecies deal with the end of the world and the return of the Lord Jesus Christ to this planet.

8 The argument from thought at its highest level. In times of great emotion or danger when all the mental powers of man are concentrated thoughts turn toward God.

9 The argument from the existence of the function of faith. The existence of a sense organ is proof that there exists the reality to be perceived through this organ. Man has the organ of faith in metaphysical realities. It could have never been developed and retained if there were not the reality perceived through it.

10 The argument from the bias of the human mind. We can test every thought except the thought with which we test. We cannot rely on our fallible minds alone. We are doomed to error without a higher revelation. Atheism has no revelation from higher spheres and therefore is not reliable. Christianity has a higher revelation telling us that God exists.

11 The argument from the fact of contingency. Everything changeable and transitory is contingent. Things appear and disappear. It can be and also can not be. Consequently, it must have a cause outside of itself. A world of contingency presupposes a supreme being who exists necessarily, who could NOT "NOT be", who has no cause outside of Himself. He is without dependency. He can not cease to exist. Existence is His nature.

12 The argument from the laws of nature. It is conceivable that laws should exist without a lawgiver and law enforcer. Science discovers these laws; it does not create them.

13 The argument from exceptions to the laws of nature. Water is the only element which gets larger when it freezes, making ice lighter than water, thereby preserving aquatic life. All combinations of hydrogen are poisonous except water, which is essential for life. This is the handiwork of God.

14 The argument from miracles. There are documented medical records of instantaneous supernatural healing. A miracle is the temporary suspension of the laws of nature.

15 The argument from the expansion of the universe. Scientists know the rate of expansion of the universe. By calculating backwards in time they can come to the point of departure. The expansion of the universe is proof of the existence of God who determined its beginning.

16 The argument from the 2nd law of thermodynamics. In a closed system matter can only progress from order to randomness, chaos, anarchy. If our universe had been in existence from eternity past, it would be in chaos. The universe is orderly only because it proceeds from a God of order.

17 The argument from the existence of genes. The lack of information and intelligence in acids (DNA) cannot communicate to genes how to develop intelligence in humans or instinct in animals. Genes are proof of a Creator.

18 The argument from the existence of radioactive elements. By losing electrons, radioactive elements pass from stage to stage until they are degraded to the point where they become lead. Scientists know how long it takes for one element to change to the next in the order of filiation, eventually becoming lead. If the universe existed from eternity or billions of years, there would be no radioactive elements. We live in a created, relatively young universe.

19 The argument from the existence of black holes. Black holes are collapsing stars (absorbing light and energy) where the laws of matter and time are no longer valid. At the border between the point where light is reflected and where it is absorbed is timelessness or eternity. This defies the atheist belief that the only reality is our space-time continuum.

20 The argument from the gradation found in all things. There are things that are good, better, and best. The best of all if God.
The metaphysical argument of Anselm of Canterbury. When you say God does not exist, you mean the being than which a greater cannot be conceived. But He must have existence, otherwise a greater could be conceived. Since God is perfect and all powerful, what could cause Him not to exist? If God is conceivable, His nonexistence is inconceivable.


21 The argument from the composition of all entities in nature. Everything composed services something other than itself. The composed thing proves the existence of the Composer.
The witness of the best exemplars of mankind. Contrast the witness of the lives of the 12 disciples (almost all were martyred) to the atheists. The atheists' witnesses are the greatest criminals of the human race: Stalin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Tito, Mao Tse-Tung, and Karl Marx, among others. What impartial judge would have any difficulty deciding for the existence of God when one has to choose between these two groups of witnesses.

22 The witness of men of science. http://www.icr.org/idx-txt.htm

23 The proof from great art. We're all aware of the great religious motifs in paintings, sculptures, and musical masterpieces. Has even one great work been inspired by the denial of God?

24 The witness of farmers. Atheism is the child of city-dwellers who are enclosed within walls and perceive the universe through grimy windowpanes. They do not see the universe as it really is. Farmers who live in close communion with nature know it best.
They are not atheists, because they know it can only be understood as the creation of God.

25 The witness of animals. Professor Dr. James Gould from Princeton University put a dish with syrup at a distance from a honeycomb. After the bees discovered the syrup, he moved the dish 1.25 times the distance from the honeycomb in comparison with the first time. At the third experiment, the distance was 1.25 times as big as at the second and so on, until the dish arrived to be 900 meters away from the honeycomb. But when Prof. Gould arrived in this place, he had a surprise: the bees had been there before him and had waited for the syrup. The bees knew that the distance increases each time with a factor of 1.25, and had calculated where the dish would be next. Some animal abilities are without explanation, unless God thinks for them.

26 The proof from the satisfaction of our needs. For all basic human needs there exists a reality apart from men. Reality always corresponds to our fundamental needs. Our desire for happiness so far exceeds our experiences that it is inconceivable that there is not a God to meet our hope for a future paradise.

27 The proof from artificial satellites. Our satellites, though requiring intricate calculations and complex instruments, have short endurance. Yet they are amazing achievements. Could they have simply happened without designers. The earth is a satellite, yet during all of its years it has never deviated or been sucked into the sun. God has chartered and maintained the paths of the celestial bodies.

28 The proof from automated industry. Behind automation exists the engineer who conceived it and calculated it. During the operation there is a worker in command. The universe appears to function automatically, but don't be deceived. Its builder and maker is God.

29 The proof from answered prayers. Prayers made in impossible situations when all seemed lost, humanly speaking, have been answered, sometimes in remarkable ways. If not so, prayer would have long ago become extinct along with many superstitions that have vanished. Fulfilled prayers are proof of a Divine Listener.

30 The argument from the need for an eternal mind. The mind organizes the impressions it receives daily through the senses and creates out of them a universe. The mind puts all the events it perceives through the senses into the categories of quantity, quality, causality, modality, and finality. When there was no human mind, where was the universe? There must have always have been a mind to conceive the universe. This eternal mind is God.

31 The proof from the existence of evil. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. The existence of suffering proves the existence of sin, which in turn proves the existence of justice, goodness, righteousness, and godliness. Try to prove that a child has no father by the fact that his father spanked him.

32 The argument from one's faith. As one advances toward Truth in his thought processes, his inner doubts begin to disappear. As a man becomes more like Jesus, he knows his faith to be real. As a man lives out the Book of Proverbs, his life confirms his knowledge of God.

33 The argument from the impossibility of proving the contrary. Unless a person has been everywhere; and has seen, heard, smelt, tasted, and felt everything; and has lived forever; that person cannot prove that there is no God. This means that atheism can never be proved.

And I messed up the numbering. Seems like there is only 33.

My favourite is the one about the Satalites - god's last forever while man's last only a couple of years.

Hehe.

Jet Grind

Compelling? Hardly, I don't have the time to go through and deal with them one by one, but I don't have to. They're all very old, as are the refutations of them.

beastmaster

True. For example, a talking snake is an animal ability without explanation, unless of course God was thinking for the snake.

Bill Snedden

I think that the title on that article must be wrong.

I'm sure it was intended to be: "35 Proofs of a Lack of Formal or Informal Education"

Or perhaps "35 Proofs that a Little Knowledge is Indeed a Dangerous Thing"

Or maybe "35 Proofs of the Existence of Confirmation Bias"

Any other ideas?

Regards,

Bill Snedden

PandaJoe

Rapid Fire Fallacies!

Grumpy

Really? I'd never heard these before:

Actually, the last two are variations on Paley's watchmaker model. But I've never heard them described like that. Nor have I see one "proof" shamelessly counted twice.

Actually, I have. Aquinas did it Five Ways.

Amaranth

If you can't blind them with brilliance....

Let's see how far I get before I get bored:

1) God is complex. Who created god? Who created that creator? Repeat ad naseum...

2) An excellent justifcation for the existance of aliens, unicorns, vampires, werewolves, et cetera. To circumvent the common refutation - God is just a variation of a male idol, a "perfect" father figure.

3) Self-fullfilling prophecy, in that you would instantly declare than something doing anything is its purpose, making the word "purpose" effectively meaningless (there's already a perfectly good work called "action"). If you didn't go there, then you're going to have a grand time proving the "purpose" of things like Pluto, your appendix, and ebola.

4) Using this logic, it is obvious that murder, rape, and other forms of violence are socially valuable.

5) Who said the strong and smart can't love, or have a concience? Who said these aren't tools taught by the weak to justify their "superiourity" over the strong? And how does any of that support the idea of god?

6) Oh dear. *sigh*....Get a basic grasp of what you're speaking about, then try again.

7) There is no proof of Jesus, nor of these prophecies being fulfilled. It seems interesting, however, that "gods people", the jews, don't believe in Jesus as the messiah.

8) Completely, and blatantly, false. I react to a crisis by attempting to resolve or avoid it, not begging faeries to save me. Thus, your theory is broken.

9) Disgusting use of equivocation on the use of the word "sense".

10) What? Are you actually saying that it is somehow necessary that humans come to the correct answer?

11) Do you realize that this argument could just as easily replace "god" with "the universe", and work even better?

12) Equivocation of law, now? Laws, in the scientific sense, describe how things work, not dictate how they work.

13) Water isn't an element, and none of the rest of this in any way implies a god.

14) Non causa pro causa. My favorite.

15) This again? Argument from repitition?

16) Gah! Argument from ignorance of physics.

17) More non causa pro causa.

18) What? Argument from ignorance of physical science, again.

19) Argument from ignorance of websters - Atheism is lack of belief in god, not other dimensions or whatever. Proving the existance of another instance of space-time does not prove god, anyways.

20) Make sense, please. This is another "I know about leprechauns, therefore they are real!" argument.

Heh...out of time...not to mention patience....

Amaranth

Aravnah Ornan

Sorry, but that works the other way. In times of great emotion, people tend to -- are you sitting down? -- appeal to emotion. In times of great danger, people tend to go on gut reactions. Neither of those situations sounds like one in which "all the mental powers of man are concentrated."

Where is this "organ"? Maybe mine was removed when I was young.

Do you understand organic chemistry at even a high-school level? Evidently not.

4004 B.C.?

Not too circular.

I have a great desire for lots and lots of consequence-free sex. How does your G-d feel about that?

Then the g-ds of ancient Greece and Rome are real. Praise!

The disproof from unanswered prayers.

Your belief in G-d confirms your belief in G-d. Praise!

Lobstrosity

This is a joke, right? Shouldn't this go in the Humor forum? Allow me to provide a graphic that demonstrates the effect the "logic" and "science" contained in the OP has on me:

Mageth

Bill Snedden, Lobstrosity, etc:

:notworthy

I'll have a whack at a couple.

31 The proof from the existence of evil. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.

Then from where cometh infinite hell for a finite "sinful" life?

The existence of suffering proves the existence of sin, which in turn proves the existence of justice, goodness, righteousness, and godliness.

And oreos. Don't forget oreos. The existence of suffering proves everything!

Suffering proves godliness. If god's a sadistic bastard.

Try to prove that a child has no father by the fact that his father spanked him.

But if his father spanks him too much or too hard, he'll be taken away. No more father. Not much of a father in the first place, in that case.

32 The argument from one's faith. As one advances toward Truth in his thought processes, his inner doubts begin to disappear. As a man becomes more like Jesus, he knows his faith to be real. As a man lives out the Book of Proverbs, his life confirms his knowledge of God.

Well, duh, the more you believe, the more you believe what you believe is true. No shit. This "argument", of course, applies to any belief system, Islam for example. " As a man lives out the Koran, his life confirms his knowledge of Allah."

33 The argument from the impossibility of proving the contrary. Unless a person has been everywhere; and has seen, heard, smelt, tasted, and felt everything; and has lived forever; that person cannot prove that there is no God. This means that atheism can never be proved.

So god's hiding under a rock on the fourth planet of the star Xorcon in Galaxy M35A? And he is gonna be really pissed if I don't find him?

And isn't this kinda shifting the burden of proof to the wrong side?

The non-existence of any other god besides the JC god can never be proved, either. Therefore, under this argument, an Xian isn't justified in claiming their god is the One True God. Vishnu, Thor, Jupiter, et al might be out there somewheres...