Your.Master

The question doesn't seem to be proper in an existence of God forum, but I think this is where it fits best (you'll see). But then again, I'm a know-nothing newbie, so maybe I'm wrong.

Oh, and by the way, I'm atheist, so don't mistake it .

On discussions on religion with my mother and my sister I come up with curious answers.

My sister claims she doesn't believe in "God" as such, but believes in a Star-Wars like force (her words, not mine, commence squirting milk out of your nose). Upon further discussion, which was, by the way, frustrating, she claimed that this force was not sentient, but it controlled everything really and was there.

I told her "Christiana, it sounds like you're saying that you believe in electricity".

She wasn't all that amused. She explained it was something more fundamental than electricity, with infinite variation that was not just some electrons moving around.

I told her "Okay, then, you believe in electromagnetic radiation".

This annoyed her further...I think you get the point. In the end, when we broke of the discourse, I told her it sounded like electricity again.

Later on my mom and I were watching a show on the vastness of space and the big bang and all that. She declares, probably believing that I'd just nod my head sagely by her reaction when I didn't "You know, it's stuff like that that proves there must be a higher power". Very confused, I asked "Why?". Mom made the aforementioned reaction, accompanied by an amusing noise, before I reiterated "Why? It doesn't to me. That makes no sense. Why?". She responds "Well, if there wasn't, then why would there be all that space?".

...

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Setting the supreme logical inconsistencies - nay, nonexistences - of that aside, I asked her if she believed God was sentient. She, naturally, asked what the word meant. Upon explaining it to her, she said that she'd never really thought about it (SURPRISE) and wasn't sure.

Going back up to my room, I mentioned to my sister that it seemed that mom, too believed in electricity.

To my Grandma, a Catholic, I was trying to state that you really can never prove nor disprove the existence of God, in light of the fact she was spreading the exciting "news" of a little girl who had formed a "proof" on God's existence by stating that you can't create something from nothing. On an aside, that's a stupid argument anyway, because they believe that God created Creation from nothing. But anyway, I tried to say that perhaps nothing was Created, that perhaps it was already there. She said "Well, in that case, THAT'S God".

The interplay of the finite amount of energy in the known universe, having existed an indefinite amount of time (and, I know, theories say the Big Bang happened only 12-15 billion years ago) is God, and appears to me to be nonsentient. I'll simplify this to electricity.

It seems that along the maternal line, my family has a successive chain of progressively less articulate electricity-believers. If we put that to a straight-line comparison, my great-great grandma should have proven conclusively that God exists by age 7.

How many people out there do you think "Never thought of it"? How many people write down that they are Christians on the surveys, when all they really believe in is electricity? I believe in electricity (not in my sister's weirdo sense but in the obvious factual sense), does that make me an electrician?

I'm not looking to debate whether God exists (in this thread, that is), nor do I want to argue whether it would be a good thing to disillusion people with God. I'm just wondering, how many people, if you had a conversation with them, would come to realize that what they believe in is electricity (Or, on a related note, would not come to realize that but you realized it, see the case of my sister)? What are your thoughts on such people?

banditoloco

YM,
I love the way you put it. "Electricity." Hilarious. Unfortunately, most theists probably don't find it nearly as funny. I'd stay away from bringing it up with your sister again, she's probably quite offended, even though it's so funny. Anyways, back to the question you were asking; Probably at least half of all theists really don't think about what exactly they believe, and a good portion of those probably believe in "electricity". I gotta go, though, sorry to cut this short. BTW, this probably should go in miscellaneous discussions.

Bible Humper

The problem here is that from their perspective it seems to be magic. Unless they are willing to delve into the "nuts and bolts" of the matter, there is little hope here.

I have also noticed that when I interrogate believers on the nature of their god concept that I get the same sort of pantheistic "god is energy" answers. Somehow this energy is supposed to inspire us to all fall to our knees whereas electro-magnetism does not, but hey, it's all fun and games until someone gets burnt at the stake.

Jobar

Hi YM, and welcome to II.

I see lots of people who try to say that, basically, Nature=God. A quick way to find out if they are really sure about this, is to ask them if humans are natural. If they say yes, then point out that this means that humans are of the same nature as God- so in a way it is correct to say "I am God". (Hemming, hawwing and backpedaling is the usual response!)

I seem to recall that in Britian so many people have put down "Jedi" when asked for their religion, that it has become one of the more common 'religions' when statistics are given!

And it is true that, in a way, there may actually exist an 'Ultimate Force'- if a unified field theory is possible, electromagnetism, the strong and weak nuclear forces, and gravity are all aspects of a single force. Trouble is, this only existed for a tiny fraction of an instant at the moment of the Big Bang, and split into the forces we know thereafter.

And the question you asked your grandmother about God being sentient- I have been re-reading a book called "The Self-Aware Universe" by Amit Goswami, who is a Ph.D. in physics. I am uncertain about this- it seems likely that sentience (consciousness) is not possible without a brain, or a brain-like physical structure. Thing is, it is not impossible that the universe itself is a structure sufficiently organized to be called 'conscious'. One of those deep and yet-unanswered questions.

Paddy

I think many theists believe as a consequence of their inability to deal with such a vast, sometimes unforgiving, and somewhat impersonal world.
Beliving in a deity would provide some degree of comfort or purpose in what could be considered an arbitrary existence. Those that believe in 'electricity', for apparently no good reason, are what I would consider 'weak theists'. That is, they may be searching for the previously mentioned purpose or comfort, but without the committment and gratuitous sacrifice required to serve any particular deity.
I think that our 'electricians' believe in 'electricity' simply because they want it to exist. Personally, I would like this realm to exist, but my wanting it to exist doesn't make it so.

Paddy

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Perchance

Hi YM,

First of all: Welcome to II!

Second, this reminds me of conversations I've had with my sister. She says that she believes in God and Jesus, and that she would "go crazy" if she didn't, but at the same time she also "believes" in reincarnation and thinks "how nice it would be if there was a deity for everything." Some strange mixture of Christianity and polytheism, I suppose- but, given that she didn't know what "polytheism" meant when I asked her, she's probably just picked whatever sounds nice and decided she believes in it.

Third, I think this is part of the reason that so many people can continue to say, "I believe that God exists," even though their definitions don't match. They don't talk or think about it enough to realize that not everyone agrees with them. (My sister was stunned to find that people who didn't believe in God existed at all). And besides, it's not like God could butt in to contradict them, so they go on believing it all they like.

-Perchance.

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Abacus

Heh! I'm an electrical engineer. Do these "electricians" believe I'm the creator god? If so, I demand to be worshipped.

In all seriousness, for most of the time I called myself a Christian, I hadn't the foggiest idea what I believed. I called myself that because that's what my parents call themselves. I don't think they hardly knew what they believed either. At best they have some sort of fuzzy belief in some sort of higher being. They are most definately not fundies. I remember once overhearing my father say that God (the fuzzy version) started the big-bang. Until a few years ago, I was the same way. Many people I know haven't given it any thought.

It wasn't until about four years ago that I tried to take Christianity seriously. I read the bible. Before I even finished I was calling myself an atheist.

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Amos

Nature is not God but the intelligence within nature is God. This contains the ability to change and adapt to local conditions in effort to survive.

In humans this would be the mind and the consciousness is the antenna to detect impulses from the environment to be tied down or rejected by the mind (what is tied on earth is tied in heaven and what is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven).

After midlife when all reproducive changes have been made the antenna can be withdrawn or if we're luckey be consolidated with the mind to enjoy the art of godmanship while on earth.

Paddy

You have to finish with an "OR ELSE...!" Then you will have met the criteria to call yourself a god.

Paddy

Abacus

Or else!

So there!