Samhain

Ah, a breath of relief. I think I'm finally starting to see what you're trying to say. Yes, I know of that personal despair, and so many others which would cause people to feel that life just isn't worth it. I guess the difference between me and those who feel suicide would be a way out is that I value life and concious existence. There is a problem with American society especially, the intellectual is not truly valued here as in other cultures, and as such, we deal with the same shit daily that everyone else does, all the while, knowing that it's a near meaningless existence to live as such. Who truly wants to work half of their life spans staring at a computer, or carpeting floors, or plumbing, or wrapping food? I think this point was brought up rather well in the comedy "Office Space" (if you've seen it, you know what I mean). Are there alternatives to working the robotic 40-hour a week lifestyle? Of course there are. But then again these lifestyles (such as the Socratic lifestyle) are hardly glamourous. One who lived the Socratic lifestyle today in America would be viewed as nothing more than just a worthless crazy bum. It makes sense to distress at the uselessness of your knowledge without some kind of "status" to go along with it. It's hard to say why one would want to learn much and live the Socratic lifestyle only to find that they are largely ignored by the mass population, and I relate to that. Do I feel suicidal because of it? No, I value my concious existence, but I can understand why someone else would feel suicidal when they realize the worthlessness of their knowledge and free-thinking on a grand scale.

Now you're probably wondering if I would consider suicide in this case as rational. Well, to me it seems that your friend was caught in a dilemma. I assume that he had a fairly decent amount of knowledge, but that he was stuck in a world in which to express that knowledge was almost taboo in a sense because of environmental status. I completely understand this distress, and I agree this would be an understandable and acceptable reason for someone to contemplate suicide. It doesn't seem to me, though, that all alternatives had been completely explored, but realistically speaking, it would probably take his whole life just to understand all of his options, let alone even try any of them.

My only problem with suicide has largely to do with the "teen mentality" when contemplating suicide. Teens commit suicide daily, usually for extremely trivial and unrational reasons. We also see that this mentality in some adults also (which is much less common, granted, but still there nonetheless). For these cases I cannot find any rational reason why someone would even truly contemplate suicide in such a situation, but many do, and then follow through with it. This is what I find just amazingly absurd, and this is why I feel that, sometimes, suicide really isn't justified for the pain that it causes others. I had several friends who committed suicide last year. One because he "didn't have any friends" another because "he didn't like his parents." One needs to measure whether or not the reason they are committing suicide is a glass ball or a rubber ball in life. The rubber ball will bounce back up, and you can still pull through life and live it happily in many cases. The glass ball shatters, and it is a much harder thing to cope with in many cases. But the problem is that some suicidees don't seem to weigh which ball it is before they commit suicide.

Born Free

I was one of those teenagers Samhain, I don't know what the hell I thought I was doing at the time and I don't think for a minute that I really wanted to die. I won't go into the details but I got a hell of a fright when the doctor informed me I could still die even though I'd had my stomach pumped.

The look on my father's face was enough to make me vow never to even think about it again.

Since then I can't tell you how glad I am that I failed, when I think of all I would have missed doing it scares me. Now no matter how tired I get of life I still enjoy being here, being alive and I've gone the opposite way of wishing immortality were real.

Sucicide is a waste of life I think but that's just my personal viewpoint and doesn't mean I don't understand those who commit it. It's a hard thing to contemplate never mind carry out, deep down inside I always feel that for many it's a cry for help like it was with me when you feel nobody cares.

It's not bad, it's not evil, it's just a sad, cold fact of society.

ju'iblex

i understand that, i was simply outlining my personal view, not making a response to yours.

ok, thankyou for clarifying that. i agree with this, but i would no go so far as to consider those who act on impulse as irrational. i feel you underestimate how powerful those feelings of "now" can be.

this seems to contradict one of your original statements, but i may have interpreted it wrongly, so i wont argue the point.

im not entirely sure how one can disprove someones values.

i disagree. a completely sane and rational person can be so overwhelmed by pain that it forces them to commit suicide. succumbing to pain does not make someone irrational, it means they are hurting badly enough to do something terrible. albeit, it may be temporary, but we cannot judge whether or not it is reasonable for someone to commit suicide just because the possibility of hope may exist.

no i dont permit those statements. i said we are all the same level in the end. and i also said this is a reasonable reason, <to a suicidal person> for someone to commit suicide because emotion no longer exists and thus their problem with it.
I did not say that people *should* kill themselves for this reason and at any given time. nor did i say people shouldnt enjoy their lives because there is nothing in the end.

this example doesnt work because you cannot create parallels with suicidal logic <something which can only be understood subjectively by that one person> and an objective historical fact which can be understood by all; has evidence and knowledge from a number of sources.

never describe a situation which compels someone to commit suicide as trivial, nor any problem which causes someone pain.

free12thinker

I certainly agree that some suicidees (probably the majority as I noted earlier) do not put anything in perspective, but I believe that someone can make a rational decision to kill themselves, even in the presence of what seems to be a great life to everyone else. It's just a different mirror that they are looking in. A different way of accepting and appreciating themselves and the world they inhabit. That's all.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: free12thinker ]</p>

MadMordigan

So, with suicide there is not any direct effect on others? A parent who commits suicide leaving his/her little children to fend for themselves. A father or mother, part of a full family, commits suicide, puts the family in a position to not support themselves anymore, plus burdening the family with financial burdens with not only the rest of their lives, but with immediate funeral costs. Not to mention that it could also lead to the depression of the children, spouse, or, possibly, eventually to their suicide, also. Suicide may not directly cause physical harm to others, but it many cases is causes direct emotional and psychological harm to those closest to them. Just because something isn't physically harmful to others doesn't mean it's not harmful to others in any way.

A person's claim on another's life for their own emotional support cannot not trump the other's claim of sovergnty over their own existance. NO one should be forced to stay alive because it makes other people feel good.

Samhain

I didn't say that they should. I only stated that there are direct effects upon others which should be considered as well. I do not mean that they should stay alive solely because others wish, but if one could find reason to exist because of others, then perhaps it a little motivation to exist longer.

free12thinker

Sometimes I have a problem putting my thoughts into words, but you summed it up perfectly. Thanks. I may have to steal this phrase for another argument I have surrounding suicide or other victimless sins. People often argue that suicide or gambling or casual sex is wrong because of it's effect or potential effect on others. They mention the emotional toll or financial toll, but really, one can't do what other's want all the time, if it will mean a continued downer to themselves.

Samhain

juiblex:
I do not underestimate their power, I know of their power well. I only feel that to act on these immediately can cause more harm than could possibly have been prevented if one rationally thought upon their decision, especially in the case of suicide.

Of course, that was how I choose to hold values. I do not mean to portray others as wrong for holding values differently from myself, but since we know the possibilities of happiness in life, and death is an unknown or the absence and annihilation of all that is life, then I hold that the value of life should be completely explored when making such a powerful decision.

Sorry, I stated this wrong, I didn't mean the person was irrational, only that the decision could be viewed to be such.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me this sounds like you're saying that suicide is better than living even a good life (good meaning that the person who is living it believes their own life to be good). Do you mean to say that suicide is the best of all possible alternatives? Even if those alternatives make the person happy enough to live life? Sorry, but this seems to be what you're suggesting. Even if one knows that hope exists, suicide still may be the better answer.

Sorry, juiblex. To suggest that living life or not existing mean the same thing no matter what way you look at it in the end is to suggest nihilism. We all die, we all become nothingness when we die (well, not "become" but you know what I mean). If nothing death doesn't matter, because it's basically just non-existence, and life doesn't matter at all, because of death essentially, then what does it matter if we die, how we die, when we die, etc.? Life essentially has no meaning, it is absurd, but to hold that man can reasonably commit suicide for any reason is to suggest that we cannot even make meaning for ourselves in life.

I do not mean to make a parallel with suicidal logic, I only mean to say that the uninformed statement or decsion is not always reasonable. While suicide is subjective to the person, can they truly even say to themselves that they do not even begin to question what could make them want to live? If they do not explore the things which might make them want to live, then they are not making a completely informed decision, even if they think that nothing at all could cause them to want to live. Therefore the immediate action of suicide in response to some kind of heavy emotions is not always rational.

So you'd say that someone who committed suicide because they failed one test is not trivial? This actually occurred with someone I knew, for exactly that reason. Like I said before, seperate the glass balls from the rubber balls.

MadMordigan

Do you mean to say that suicide is the best of all possible alternatives? Even if those alternatives make the person happy enough to live life? Sorry, but this seems to be what you're suggesting. Even if one knows that hope exists, suicide still may be the better answer.

I cannot answer for other posters. But for me, this is exactly my position. A person's desire to end their life is all the justification needed for me to consider that action the right one. I am not going to argue, belittle, or judge such a decision at all, because it really is none of my business.

This is not to say that we can't provide help in finding alternative to those people who would rather embrace the hope of a better life.

Samhain

So you would feel that the statement of "just because" is valid in regards to suicide. Just because one wishes to end their life, no other reason. I suppose I can see this, and while I do not agree that "just because" is a truly acceptable answer, those are only my feelings. Granting this, what do you feel about people who commit suicide for reasons besides the desire to just end their life for no other reason. Do you feel that someone ending their life because they broke up with their girlfriend/boyfriend, or because they failed one test, or for some other "rubber ball" reason is completely rational? I suppose that this is more of the focus I am concerned with. Once we accept suicide as always rational and always acceptable we allow just about anything in this regard, and I have a real problem accepting that the "rubber ball" reasons are acceptable when in consideration to ending one's life. If one just simply has no desire to live life at all, just because they don't, I have trouble finding any argument against that, even though I do not completely agree with it.

Edit: Also, my previous statement was contingent upon the idea that suicide is the best alternative regarding any situation since life is meaningless. If suicide is the best answer for all situations in life then where does that leave humanity? What is the purpose of procreation or even existing? Why should we not just all commit suicide, there seems to be no reason unless there can be some kind of rationally objective value of life.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Samhain ]</p>