free12thinker

A question with 2 parts:

Part 1:Should we frown on people who want to commit suicide? I say no. I say that life isn't cake and ice cream to everyone. I say that quality of life issues surpass everything else. I say that someone's decision to live is their own, because..well, no one asked to be brought here anyways.

Part 2: Can a perfectly sane and reasonable person commit suicide? I say yes again. I obviously think that a lot of people commit suicide under instant pressure and depression, a lot of them have psychological issues, but I also think that people who commit suicide can be people who have simply done all that they wanted. Maybe they just haven't gotten what they wanted out of life. Maybe they lost a loved one and decided it would be best to walk away. People can make logical decisions on suicide because to some people, life isn't this great path and journey to enlightenment, goals, etc……

How can we tell people that they are wrong for wanting to leave this place for which they never asked to be brought into and how can we assume that just because someone embraces life in a different way, that there must be some mental defect in them?

Does anyone disagree (I know there will be plenty)

The AntiChris

I agree.

I also support assisted suicide for people at the end of their life who want "dignity in death".

Chris

Samhain

I don't think people are wrong for wanting to commit suicide, but just unreasonable (of course this is based upon the case, the terminally ill who have exhausted all other alternatives hold some kind of grace in this situation). I feel that suicidal feelings arise from allowing emotions to take total precedence over logic. The untimely taken of one's life for a xtian, in many cases, condemns them to eternity of pain and suffering, how can this be said to be reasonable? The atheist who holds no claim to an afterlife destroys their own existence, the only thing which can be truly be said to be real in this world, their consciousness. How is this any more reasonable? Of course, I do not comdemn anyone for committing suicide, I feel that they have no courage to suck it up and face life, but those are just my personal views and reasons as to why I would not commit suicide. I do, however, feel that in any case of suicide (besides the cases of terminal illness which I stated before), the individual is definately not making a completely informed decision in such a case since every single other alternative has not been exhausted in many cases. It seems like an extremely rash decision if it done without exploring all possible alternatives (which usually are left unexplored in many cases). I cannot say that it is a completely immoral act, but it does, in many cases cause unnecessary harm to loved ones, friends, etc. when a rash decision as impacting as this one is made. It seems a completely selfish act, and if one wanted to explore the morality of this act, the selfishness would be a good starting point.

edoggsmooth

I think people should have the "right" to die.

Although personally it seems rather cowardly, a person who wants to die should not be prevented from doing so, and those assiting them should not be arrested.

Life, liberty and the persuit of happiness seem to be encompassed here, as the person is pursuing happiness. The government shouldn't make decisions for people.

free12thinker

If I may ask, what religion are you? Cause I am atheist, and therefore believe in no afterlife, and since I don't believe in an afterlife, than the idea of an eternity in pain and suffering (at least to me) is untrue.

So you think it's unreasonable to not value life? What makes life so great for everyone, that it should be looked at as some divine thing? (please don't say it's a gateway to god). And if it isn't great, people should just keep trucking anyway? This isn't to say that I don't believe some people give up, people who really do value their life and let their emotions and stress get the best of them. In fact, I will note that the majority of suicidal people probably fit this description. But for those people who look at life as "theirs", and not a deity's and who look at earth as the last stop, like atheists (and maybe people of religion can't answer this), how can we claim that doing what they want with their life is wrong? And I am talking only about people who are doing "what they want", not what they want in times of severe stress, or what they think they want from one minute to the next. I'm talking people who have rationally decided, maybe this life isn't for me. Or maybe after Sele dies, I would rather die to. People make firm decisions like this, and we think they are insane, or overstressed, when in fact, they want their life to go a certain way, and nothing more.

One more note: But even for those who are suicidal and decide to kill themselves because they are under severe stress, and who haven't thought it through, what can we really say to them either? As long as they are adults, what can we really say or do? As far as kids go, I have a problem with letting them make a decision without the level of reason or logic adults are assumed to have.

[ April 12, 2002: Message edited by: free12thinker ]</p>

tronvillain

If a perfectly sane and reasonable person wants to commit suicide it is unlikely that anyone would be able to do anything to stop them. In other words, anyone we are likely to be able to stop from committing suicide are probably not sane or reasonable.

Samhain

Heh, this is the first time I've been confused as a theist. Maybe I should go undercover on BB.

Contrary to what you may have heard, I'm an atheist. Someone's spreading vicious lies about me. I want NAMES!

Good for you

For both theist and atheist. I'm semi-existential, so hopefully that will explain why. I'm not saying that everyone should hold to existentialism, but it does make a certain amount of sense to value life as an atheist. It is all we have

Praise Jebus!
Seriously, there is nothing divine about life, it sucks when you really sit back and look at it, life = shit (pessimistic enough?). And yet, life, for an atheist, is the only "chance" one has for consciousness, when we die, it doesn't matter, but isn't existence, even a shitty and absurd one better than the destruction of the very existence which defines us?

Nothing holds them to it, they can get off the ride whenever they want, but once they're off they never get back on and they lose the ability to know what it could have been like had all alternatives been exhausted. Life is all there is, one should feel compelled to "keep trucking" and unless one can make a truly informed decision by exhauting every other alternative, then suicide is a rash and cowardly way out of their immediate pain (which has possibility to subside).

I don't claim that it's morally wrong, I'm a relativist. I only claim that it is irrational until all possible alternatives have been explored. Besides since our lives are our own then why would one want to rationally shorten that life? It doesn't make any sense unless death is completely inevitable and suffering is taking place. If there's only suffering, there is chance that it can be quelled, and suicide is not a rational decision for the atheist if all alternatives have not yet been explored.

Life is for everyone because it's all there is. It is not rational to just up and decide that, even if it is hard to find joy in life. Life should always be percieved as the final threashhold. A view more like: "Hey life may be shitty, but hey, at least I'm still alive!"

Find joy in memory of a loved one, do not despair because you cannot share with them any longer. For the survivor to die as well means the wiping out of existence for both, as opposed to a fond memory of the one who has passed and the continuation of one who is still alive.

Death is not "making your life go a certain way" it is the wiping out of that life which one should try to find rational reason to hold on to at all costs.

tronvillain

While I value my continued existence, I would not attempt to hold onto it at all costs. It seems quite possible that under certain conditions I would not value my continued existence, which would make suicide the rational decision.

southernhybrid

It's not insane nor is it immoral to commit suicide, IMO. Assisted suicide, and euthanasia are benevolent options to pain and suffering. If these things were legal and readily available there would probably be less use for them. I've heard terminally ill people say that just knowing they had a way out, helped them have the courage to keep living. Too bad they locked up Dr. K.

However, in the case of a healthy person, the matter becomes more complicated. I believe that one should be encouraged to explore all other options before one ends his/her life. I had an uncle that killed himself at about the age of 50. He was the most seriously depressed person that I have ever met in my life. He had undergone all kinds of therapy, chemicals, counseling, and even ECT. None of it helped him. ( that was about 20 years ago, before some of our current drugs )He had a wife who left him after enduring so many years of living with a totally joyless person. When he killed himself, I felt it was probably the best thing he could do for himself. At the time of his death, he had no close friends or family members, so his death was of no great consequence to anyone. He certainly had tried to find relief through other methods but they failed him.

On the other hand, if a person who has a family, children to support, friends who depend on him/her, or some other responsibility that affects other people, one could conclude that suicide is a selfish if not immoral act under those circumstances. A very close friend of mine lost the love of her life to suicide at the age of 30. She is now 59 and once in awhile when she talks about this man, tears form in her eyes. She never married again and had to raise two children on her own. I would have to conclude that either that man was insane, or incredibly insensitive and selfish to abandon his family in that way. There were no warning signs as far as my freind could tell.

When I was young, I was very depressed and comtemplated suicide, to the point where late one night I started swallowing tranquilizers like they were M and Ms. The fact that I had an infant, made me pause and feel that what I was doing was wrong. I decided to tough it out a bit. I'm glad I'm still around and I have never again desired to end my life since that time, although I've had plenty of episodes of depression, and extreme stress in my earlier life.

I don't think that the question of whether or not suicide is ethical is simple. It depends on the individual situation. Perhaps since we are such social animals, we feel betrayed by those who aren't willing to continue on as part of our communities and meet their responsibilities. If one is very sick or very old, we may view this as a time when suicide is acceptable. Suicide in those instances, not only relieves the suffering of the individual, it takes away the burden that the dependent individual has put on the community. ( i.e. medical resources, family stress, social programs etc. ) I don't think it's a black or white issue.

[ April 13, 2002: Message edited by: southernhybrid ]</p>

Samhain

The decision can only be thought as rational if all other alternatives have been exhausted. I don't view "just because" as a rational excuse. Of course, though, as I stated, there are exceptions to this. If one is terminally ill, has no hope of finding a cure and is suffering pain or will possibly be suffering pain, then I hold that it would be a completely rational and justified alternative to commit suicide. Like I said, it's not a moral question, but one of preference, some do not value life, but I think the devaluazation of the only thing which allows us to "be" is irrational. If continued existence inevitably concludes (rationally!) that the value of existence is too high of a cost for the amount of pain and suffering in that life, then I would not view this as a cowardly act, but one as completely reasonable and justified.

EDIT: To be noted, I do not hold that physical is the only type of suffering which could allow someone to choose this alternative. Also: new, completely individual situations require new approaches. No two individual situations are identical, and must be approached by different means in some cases.

[ April 12, 2002: Message edited by: Samhain ]</p>