Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David Mathews · 07-01-2002, 06:03 PM

Hello Theli,

Quote:

choosing a belief is a roll of the dice, all beliefs are equal relative to the individual holding the beliefs, and without a doubt no one knows enough.

Enough for what?

David: No one knows enough for absolute certainty, no one knows enough for even marginal certainty.

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But from your "roll of a dice" philosophy you tend to think that there is no reasoning behind any beliefsystem. All are built on dust and air.

David: All belief systems are built upon dust and air. The reason for that is quite simple: The Universe is large and complicated; humans are small and complicated; the human brain is intelligent and creative, yet fallible and limited; human life is short and our time is occupied in satisfying the body rather than searching for knowledge and finding truth.

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This ofcourse makes no sense as we can utilize our beliefs and knowledge, wich would mean that there must be some truth-value to them.

David: There is some truth-value in all belief systems which possess positive content.

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To first say that you are willing to learn and then say that there is no knowledge (or reasoning) wich you can evaluate or choose belief after seems abit constradictory to me.

David: The contradiction is necessary and useful.

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If god is outside our known and understandable/comprehensible reality then how can you apply attributes to him, such as non-physical?

David: Our reality is physical; God is outside our reality; therefore God is not physical.

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These claims made by you must be deemed false, since they are of a supposed comprehended nature, but still applied to an "incomprehensible" being.
A contradiction to say the least.
If god is outside of reality as we know it then no "real" attributes or qualities can be applied to him. Including "existence".
An unreal being cannot be said to exist by us.

David: I don't object to the above argument at all. If you follow the above argument to its ultimate conclusion you will confront the mystery of God. The mystery of God is so powerful and terrifying to humans that you hide it behind the veil called "atheism".

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Oh my!
So if you found a rock lying on the ground that you've never seen before would the most rational action be-

1. Running around with your pants down, screaming scared out of your mind, because you think some evil ghosts from pluto put the rock there, and will come back to kill you with mutated popcorn?

2. Pass the rock admitting that you don't know how it got there?

David: I don't know where you got your illustration from, but if you spent some time thinking about that rock you might realize something about reality which will quite literally terrify you to the very center of your being.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-01-2002, 06:12 PM

Hello IntenSity,

I read your summary of my assertions and must say that I appreciate the fact that you are listening to me.

I will make several comments:

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5. Christianity encourages the "live and let live" care-free approach to social life. ie. If you see someone get raped, you do not need to know why or even interfere.

David: Regarding belief-systems and religions, Christians and all people ought to practice the "live and let live" approach to social life. Physical acts of violence are in fact contrary to the principle of "live and let live" and therefore society has an obligation to discourage and punish those acts.

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9. David Matthews asks a lot of questions because he is interested in our viewpoints. However, he feels we are not obligated to explain to anyone why we hold any particular beliefs.

David: You are representing myself accurately, I commend you for listening.

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He however does not know what "positive content" means - he thinks its atheists that made the claim that they do not offer any positive content.
He rejects atheism solely because it offers nothing.

David: If I am wrong in speaking about atheism in the above manner, you can demonstrate that I am wrong easily enough by presenting atheism's positive content.

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By extension he says the existence of religious movements like Sai Babas' and suicide cults of people like David Koresh etc are factual proof of Gods' existence/

David: I didn't actually say this, did Intensity find it in the manual?

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To give you something to chew, here ia a page that explains
Two Dozen Good Arguments for Atheism perharps then you can review your phrase "atheism offers nothing positive".

David: I will do so.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-01-2002, 06:15 PM

Hello Helen,

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Well, I just can't envisage an atheist before God and demanding hell. I guess that's why I'm having trouble with this scenario.

I know that many people here reject the existence of God outright. But generally inherent in that is "I wouldn't want to believe in your God even if such a God did exist" - they find some of Christian beliefs about God abhorrent.

And there's an assumption that such people, if/when face to face with God, would feel the same way.

However I am not convinced that those who abhor ideas of God would find God to be abhorrent when face to face with Him.

That's why I am reluctant to accept that someone who is angry about teachings about God here, would necessarily have the same reaction to God face to face.

David: Helen, you are exactly right. That is why the majority of atheists, and perhaps all atheists, will find a home in heaven after they die. God will have mercy upon them because they will recognize the magnitude of their mistake, humble themselves before God, and acknowledge that they deserve punishment for their blasphemy. God's love will save such people no matter how obstinate and stubborn their were throughout their life.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-01-2002, 06:23 PM

Hello Intensity,

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Would you also say that God is immaterial, infinite, invisible, unchanging and physically undetectable?

David: Yes.

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David Mathews:
God is that being whose existence is not dependent upon your knowledge, belief or acceptance.
How do you know this?
Do you mean "our knowledge" or "my knowledge"?

David: God's existence is not dependent upon human knowledge or acknowledgment specifically because nothing that exist exist as a result of human knowledge and acknowledgment.

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If it is not based on knowledge, then is it actual existence or fantasy?
If something is not part of reality, CAN it be said to exist in Reality?
And if it is not part of reality, is it then real?
If it is real (and yet is not part of reality), then what do you mean by the word "real"?

David: God is not "real" in the sense that humans might say that an apple is "real" or a building is "real" or Abraham Lincoln was "real". Your statements reflect an intrinsic weakness in human language and human mentality. Our words are not sufficient to encompass God.

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If God exists even without us knowing he exists, it can only be because he does not exist in our reality. We have the same reality but different perspectives.

If God is not part of reality, then he is merely opinion or superstition.

Exists where?

Who gets to define existence/ reality?. And on what basis?

David: You must understand that those people who say "I exist" are in fact lying because our own individual existence is only a temporary and transitory phenomenon. When a human says "that mountain exist" that human is lying because the mountains themselves are only temporary and transitory phenomenon.

All things which exist in our reality do not exist in any sense comparable to God's existence. That is why our language fails to encompass God.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-01-2002, 06:26 PM

Hello Intensity,

Quote:

Originally posted by IntenSity:
David,
I am willing to accept that indeed God exists. The question of whether or not he exists isnt really important anyway for atheists.
What we are interested in is, is there a single very compelling reason to believe God exists?
If so, what is that reason?

David: I see that our discussion is progressing along quite well.

There is a single very compelling reason to believe that God exist. I can't point it out to you because it is not outside of yourself. I can't search through your soul to find it within yourself.

You have to find it on your own. You can find it on your own, if you are bold enough to search.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

John Page · 07-01-2002, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
What does atheism have to do with knowledge, direct observation or evidence?

I know that I have not observed directly (or indirectly) or found any evidence for the existence of god as anything but a product of the human psyche/imagination.

Now, to play the question back to you, "What does theism have to do with knowledge, direct observation or evidence?"

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Originally posted by David Mathews:
David: Existence appears random. I could have been born in India, China.....The longing within my soul, I suppose, is not random. I suppose that came directly from God Himself, pre-installed into the human operating system.

I seem to recollect you supposing that existence is evidence of god etc. Above, your suppositions about existence in general and your soul in particular contradict each other and hence an inconsistent view of your god's role in existence.

I don't think it unreasonable to use (IMO hypothetical) god as the "yet unknown reason" for phenomena we cannot explain. Worshiping a god may make a person feel less to blame for seemingly random events (bad harvest etc.) I also see spirituality as being of benefit, helping people feel righteous and good about themselves. However, your answers tell me that, unless I have seriously misunderstood your words, your reasons for believing are internally inconsistent and inferior compared to other theological dogmas.

I do not critisize your feelings or sincerity but respectfully suggest it would be a frutiful exercise to re-examine why you believe what you believe.

Cheers, John

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: John Page ]

David Mathews · 07-01-2002, 06:44 PM

Hello Rainbow Walking,

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Rw: God is a fact beyond reality? Hmmm�that�s a revealing statement David. I was wondering how long it would take to lure you out from under the rocks of unsupported assertion into the bright crisp air of Fantasia.

David: That God is a fact beyond reality is a philosphical necessity.

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Did your deity come to you with these facts of his own volition or did you go to him seeking them? Since your manual declares that men are to seek your deity I am assuming you launched out in search of these facts of your own volition, is this true or false?

David: I searched for these facts myself, examining as many ideas and concepts as were readily available to me.

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By what epistemological means did you gather these facts beyond reality?

David: "Facts beyond reality" are necessary and unavoidable. I suppose that you have some of your own, though you may not even recognize them for what they are.

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I mean, when you unplugged your brain stem from its socket and went drifting off into the foggy netherworld beyond reality to gather up these facts how did you find your way back to your body? There are so many of you floating around out there gathering these nuggets of truth how do you find your way back to YOUR body?

David: I don't know what you are talking about here.

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Is there some sort of cosmic traffic controller that directs you guys back home safely? It would be odd to wake up and find that you are no longer a white male living in Florida, wouldn�t it? Has this ever happened to you before?

David: I don't know what you are talking about. Please clarify.

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And another thing, while you�re out there in the land beyond time, how do you know when it�s time to return to Kansas Dorothy ? Is there a time limit or something?

David: It seems to me that your imaginations have gained the advantage over reasoned discussion. Do you really know what you are talking about?

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And while we�re on the subject, do you ever worry about being hijacked by demons? It seems I remember a lot of stuff written in your manual about folks being demon possessed. Is this how it happened? Or do they just get picked up along the way like hitchhikers.

Now here�s an idea for you David that you might want to consider, that could be profitable if you implement it properly. Maybe it�s already been thought of, I don�t know. I�m assuming you would. Perhaps you could start an insurance company selling mental health insurance policies to your fellow fact finders beyond reality. You never know when one could get lost and then the family would be stuck with that brainless body to tend to for such a long time. The financial burden could be devastating. You could set it up the way they sell those policies at the airports. Except you�d have to peddle yours at church I suppose.

David: I don't know what has inspired you to speak so eloquently about nothing.

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Another question that just crossed my mind: While you�re out there gathering up facts, how do you distinguish fact from fantasy? Are the facts like glowing or something? Are they decorated in pink ruffles with those little flowery buttons and just a touch of glitter? Could you elaborate on this one for me?

I�m immensely curious about these facts beyond reality you are quoting David, and I must confess, a little jealous. I mean, here I am, trudging along like a dutiful little soldier, pouring thru books and internet files trying to determine how we got here and there you are, floating about like a puffball gathering up facts about our reality from beyond reality, bringing home new and wonderful insights that shock and astound everyone. How do you do it? It must be great living on the cutting edge of time. You must share this secret with us David. You must!

David: Now that you have vented, are you really satisfied with anything that you have said?

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Rw: Tell me again David what relevance this has to the truth-value of YOUR beliefs or the impossibility of verification of the existence of YOUR deity?

David: You asked the question regarding Christian medical benevolence.

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Now that I�ve brought you up-to-snuff on this discussion maybe you�ll put away all your wind up straw men and actually address the cogency of my arguments.

David: Present a cogent argument and I will respond to it ...

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Stick around folks for the popcorn and drinks. They�re immensely more fulfilling than David�s arguments.

David: Rainbow, your creative writing is a pleasure to read. If you continue to write in this manner, I will bring the popcorn and drinks myself.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-01-2002, 06:48 PM

Hello Scientiae,

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People,

Surely most of you realize by now that Douglas Bender is an attention-seeker? Most of us have already thoroughly humiliated this joker as well as debunked many of his claims. So there is really no other reason to give him the pleasure of thinking that the garbage he writes deserves a response. Nor is any lurker going to give DJB any more credibility.

Ignore the child -- let him spout his vomit. Don't let him hijack this thread with his brand of bigotry, as he has done so often in the past. The thread is titled 'David Mathews' not 'Bash Douglas -- Again'

Scientiae

EDIT: Welcome, David!

David: Excellent suggestion, Scientiae. I instituted a policy or ignoring Douglas Bender's posts a long time ago, and I encourage everyone else on this thread to do the same.

Thanks for welcoming me to the board, I enjoy these sorts of discussions.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

Ryanfire · 07-01-2002, 07:26 PM

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Our words are not sufficient to encompass God.

David, if words cannot encompass all that god is, why is the bible written in words? If the mind cannot comprehend god, then why do we make up god with words? How did religion get where it is today if words are meaningless in the place of god?

It seems to me only feelings are used in the place of god. We humans feel very lonely being on a small blue planet in the vastness of the universe. So we tend to look for something bigger to help us find our place in all of this. But a god isn't going to intervene and give us all the answers, it is in fact, naturalism that will lead to most if not all answers of the universe. A god does not place us here, give us all we need to hear or know, and then tell us to live for 80-100 years, be good and be ready for death.

Life would be meaningless that way. Everybody wants a purpose to existence, you don't need to look too far for guidance. We have truth, logic, reason, reality, science, thought, emotions, intuition, nature, and fellow man. The only thing that can happen is we do it all on our own. No need for prayer, no need to look for god for guidance, no need for god to find our answers, man is not helplessly depraved.

Our understanding of the above is what gives us limits or let us go beyond limits.

What are your thoughts david? Do we really need god to do all the work for us? Shouldn't we have faith in ourselves?

Thanks, and have a good one.
Ryan.

Philosoft · 07-01-2002, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:


David: If you created such a Universe it would provoke your creatures to arrogance as they would consider themselves the center of the Universe and primary interest of the Creator.

Unless I created them without arrogance. See how easy this stuff is?

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David: You were praising the squid's eyes and now you reveal that even the squid's eyes would not satisfy you. I suppose that your complaint against God is frivolous.

Actually, I was explaining the idea of relative goodness. I don't know of any particular eye that is better than the squid's. What I do know is that the human retina must have been either an oversight or a deliberate muck-up by your omnimax creator. Would you say your creator is capable of either of these two things?

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David: Perhaps so. I must say that I am not particularly devoted to Star Trek and haven't watched any of the programs over the last five or so years, nor have I watched any of the original programs for at least as long (if not longer).

Then perhaps you should have thought twice before using that argument?

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