B. H. Manners

Hello Everyone,

I would like to introduce you all to David Mathews, a Church of christ preacher and teacher. For those of you here who are former CoC "apostates like me, David comes from the "non-institutional" group who are traditionally opposed to orphan homes, extra-congregational endeavors, ect.

I met David over at Grace Centered Magazine, the same board that Booty/Mr. Brojee came to us from.
Well David, since you are here, what would you like to speak to us about? We are glad you are here and welcome!

David Mathews

Hello Everyone,

I just want to say thanks to B.H. for inviting me on this discussion board. I look forward to hearing the viewpoints expressed by people here.

For those who would like to familiarize themselves with my beliefs and opinions, you can visit my home page:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/dmathew1" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/dmathew1</a>

Sincerely,

David Mathews
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/dmathew1" target="_blank">David Mathews' Home Page</a>

madmax2976

Welcome Dave,

I spent about 15 years in the C of C myself, so I'm aware of some of the particulars of that group. I went to school at the Northeast School of Biblical Studies in Clifton Park, NY, but spent most of my C of C time in the Vermont/New Hampshire area in rather small congregations.

I now live in Edmond, OK where there's at least a half dozen C of C's in just this one town. Course now I'm one of those evil atheist types so it doesn't have the same affect on me as it would have before.

Now tell me, is everyone in the C of C still dead set against instrumental music in the worship service?

David Mathews

Hello,

The church of Christ still advocates worship without instrumental music, but not universally. There is a lot of diversity in the church, and a lot of division.

When did you decide to become an atheist? What motivated you to make that decision?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

madmax2976

Yes, I was in the middle of some of the division early on myself.

<strong> I've been an atheist for 3 years now. But I spent about 5 years in my "deconversion" phase.

<strong> Many things. My own comtemplation/evaluation of the arguments for and against the existence the existence of God. My evaluation of the evidences and claims for Christianity and other faiths. Exposure to different points of view and willingness to open my mind to those views. Things like that.

Kosh

&lt;assuming that question isn't just for one&gt;

Education

David Mathews

Hello MadMax,

Would you say that you are a dogmatic atheist or is atheism merely an opinion for you?

What sort of benefits do you see in being an atheist as opposed to believing in God?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

madmax2976

Well, I don't really think there is anything "mere" about my opinions. I happen to be quite fond of them.

But to answer your question, I am a pretty convicted atheist. I consider the likelihood of any deity existing to be quite low. I think that some deities, like the Christian God Yahweh, have an even lower likelihood than others.

[/qb][/quote]
What sort of benefits do you see in being an atheist as opposed to believing in God?
[/QB][/QUOTE]

I believe truth itself typically provides more benefit than falsehoods. Which is why I suspect we seek it. In this case, being an atheist appears to be the more likely, and therefore the more truthful, position.

Of course "benefit" doesn't really decide the issue. That gets too close to the "lets believe this because its more pleasant" fallacy.

Consider the movie "The Matrix". It was certainly a more pleasant prospect to take the blue pill than the red pill. However, if I were asked, I would take the red pill even so. Why? Insatiable curiosity perhaps? The expectation that the truth is more likely to provide benefits than the reverse? - probably.

Of course there are an assortment of smaller benefits:

- Nothing interferes with football season.
- I get to keep my money without any guilt if I don't contribute to the plate.
- No one has to suffer through listening to me lead songs anymore.
- I'm not confined to interpreting everything so that it fits in accord with my beliefs. (i.e. I'm more free to change my beliefs if the evidence is sufficient to warrant it)
- I don't have to teach young kids in Sunday school class how to defend beliefs that I don't think can be defended.
- The minister will never ask me to fill in for a Sunday sermon again. (It would interesting if he did though - hmm)
- No one ever asks me to go door knocking anymore.
- I don't have to convince people that evolutionists are all misguided imbeciles or involved in worldwide conspiracy to fool everyone
- I don't have to consider myself a "wretch" in need of salvation from something. On the other hand I can accept the fact that I'm not all that special in the scheme of the cosmos - and thats okay. I don't need to live forever for my life to have meaning.
- Oh, and I get to sleep in on Sundays.

David Mathews

Hello MadMax,

What do you suppose makes atheism more likely than theism?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

madmax2976

Well there is no "theism" per se, but rather all kinds of different theisms, however:

- Theisms typically suppose that the "supernatural" exists, yet no supernatural entities or forces have ever been verified to exist.

- Many theisms suppose that consciousness (God, souls, demons and spirits) can exist apart from a brain, however the evidence we have goes against such an idea. The evidence from drugs, injury and disease points to consciousness being directly dependent upon a physical brain.

- History has demonstrated that whenever we come to be able to explain some phenomena, that explanation is a naturalistic one, not a theistic one. Theistic/supernaturalistic answers have often had to give way to naturalistic ones, but never the reverse.

- Christian theism supposes a deity that desires humans believe in it, yet the evidence for such an entity is ambiguous at best. This inconsistency suggests that Christian theism is less likely than atheism or even some other theisms. Islamic and Judaic theisms suppose simliar ideas and thus have the same weakness.

- No theism has been able to demonstrate that a deity of any kind exists, therefore the lack of belief in the existence of any such beings is at the very least reasonable.

Now I will say that there are some theisms which cannot be as readily assessed. Deism would be one such belief as it does not attempt to characterize its deity in much detail. Obviously if nothing much is offered, then there is little to evaluate. However I would suppose that deists would still characterize their deity as a "supernatural" entity and the lack of evidence for the supernatural in general would still count against it.

What do you suppose would make your theism more likely than the atheistic position that I hold?

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: madmax2976 ]</p>