Freethought & Rationalism Archive

xian · 03-17-2003, 07:42 PM

Quote:

He just says "something," so I think this Law can only be used to talk about one thing at a time--not to compare two things with each other. So we can't use it to compare the GPB and the IPU.

I still grant for the sake of argument your idea that it's intuitively impossible for two infinite beings to coexist, however. [/B]

you are correct, and thank you for bringing that up. I always appreciate it when people clarify laws of logic (i mean that). It helps all of us, including those who are curious about these topics.

I want to clarify that I am not comparing 2 beings when referencing the law of noncontradiction, but I am referring to two beings sharing the same infinite attribute. So in this sense, I am talking about a common attribute that violates the law of noncontradiction because that same attribute is being proposed onto 2 seperate beings, which is where the violation occurs. (it just happens to have a comparison built into it

)

it cannot exist, that 2 beings are infinitely powerful. Therefore the GPB, if it is to exist at all (and this is not saying it does, but IF IT DOES), must be alone.

and keep in mind, this is not an argument for the existence of God. It is only an argument to debunk the IPU = GPB myth. This is an argument that states God, when defined as the GPB, is unique among all possible gods, and stands alone, and superior to, all other potential deities.

Wyz_sub10 · 03-17-2003, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xian
a great response. perhaps the best atheist rebuttal so far. i respond to this with 2 points:

I take that to mean that you choose not to address the points raised.

Fair enough.

At least you seem to realize that you are saying nothing in favour of a J/C god, or against the IPU.

xian · 03-17-2003, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wyz_sub10

I take that to mean that you choose not to address the points raised.

Fair enough.

At least you seem to realize that you are saying nothing in favour of a J/C god, or against the IPU.

no, it means that when i come into an atheist board with 100's of users, many of them hostile towards Christianity, in addition to my limited time, I will select the arguments I want to respond to.

responses that contain ad-hominem remarks like yours will be summarily dismissed.

responses that contain sound reasoning w/o the ad-hominem and where I perceive a genuine interest in dialogue will be responded to.

i am not about to pander to every single response I get, ad-hominem and all. I am one xian amongst a bee-hive of atheists, I have not the time to engage everyone.

Infidelettante · 03-17-2003, 07:55 PM

Xian, why do you have a need to prove your God? What does it matter what others think of you and your God. It is so odd that theists seem to have this desire to stand on a level with those they see as godless. You come to this forum and place your God in play as though he were some ball to be knocked about the court to see who does the best knocking. Isn't this some what embarassing for him?

I once asked a street preacher how he could sell his god on a street corner as though he were a cheap watch. He replied *I don't sell him he's free.* I said *but, he is still cheap.* Why do you theists search out ways to cheapen your God. The atheists and the skeptics and the agnostics will never see it your way. You only make silly what you mean to defend. You deride what you claim to hold dear. Your apologetics do not convince. Your logic does not sway. Your reason does not hold. The very thing you seek is lost in what you do not see. You lower your God to our level. You expose him to our judgement. You allow us to pick at him as though he were some thing we don't want on the bottom of our shoes.

What happened to the dignity of the Divine? Is your God more real to you because you make a game of his existence? Will he love you the more for all the quick answers and witty rejoinders? Can you find his grace on message boards? Do you think this magnifies his glory. Do you think this serves his will? Do you think this furthers his purpose? Go to church or volunteer somewhere. Help the poor or the elderly. Don't come here and minimize your God.

JT

xian · 03-17-2003, 07:57 PM

Quote:

JTVrocher: <quote deleted>

nothing left for me to respond to, unfortunately.

xian: please do not accuse members of ad homs, when no ad hom is present.

And to all participants - do not make antagonizing statements off-topic. Let's keep the discussion civil - frustrating though it may be for all parties at times.

Wyz_sub10 · 03-17-2003, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xian
no, it means that when i come into an atheist board with 100's of users, many of them hostile towards Christianity, in addition to my limited time, I will select the arguments I want to respond to.

Of course you will. It just seems that you are avoiding the ones that challenge your original argument - that the statement re: "one less god" is not valid.

Quote:

responses that contain ad-hominem remarks like yours will be summarily dismissed.

I've done no such thing. As a moderator I have edited posts of atheists and theists alike for that content. As happens occasionally a comment will be made, and responded to, before I (or the other mods) can catch it.

But I think you should either provide me with the ad hom I supposedly hurled your way, or an apology.

Quote:

responses that contain sound reasoning w/o the ad-hominem and where I perceive a genuine interest in dialogue will be responded to.

My response was the very first one - and it was sincere. If you do not want to (or cannot) address the points, then say so. Do not resort to unwarranted accusations.

Quote:

i am not about to pander to every single response I get, ad-hominem and all. I am one xian amongst a bee-hive of atheists, I have not the time to engage everyone.

Produce the ad hom you speak of, or address the real issue.

EggplantTrent · 03-17-2003, 08:08 PM

Xian, what is the point of all this? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Are you trying to say that there is only one God (which is the christian god or however you define him)? That if you give the IPU j/c god attributes, it is no longer IPU, but the Christian God? Therefore the IPU argument is invalid because when you assign j/c or gpb attributes to the IPU, IPU becomes the j/c god or gpb. So the argument actually turns into "You say that God exists because he is all powerful. But your god exists because he is all powerful"?

If I am in error regarding this, then please clarify.

EggplantTrent

xian · 03-17-2003, 08:14 PM

"

I take that to mean that you choose not to address the points raised. "

making an assumption. Despite the fact that I have the most posts in this thread and have responded to several people, nevertheless you put make a personal assumption about me that is unwarranted.

"At least you seem to realize that you are saying nothing in favour of a J/C god, or against the IPU."

Putting words in my mouth, and an accusatory statement saying I "realize something" when you have no idea what I am thinking, cannot read my mind, and have no moral or logical position to make that accusation.

"Of course you will. It just seems that you are avoiding the ones that challenge your original argument - that the statement re: "one less god" is not valid. "

More assumption and ad-hominem attack. This remark carries with it a bias that I am incapable of responding to your "superior arguments" and am picking out only the weak ones. This is also an insult to other atheists that I am responding to. You are implying that their arguments were weak and I think you owe them an apology.

It seems you are so used to tossing around sublte ad-hominem remarks at Christians, perhaps you don't even notice it? I do not know, except that I noticed it.

I resent the accusation that I am dodging arguments because I have limited time, and am being bombarded with responses that I cannot possibly answer them all.

That is a low, ad-hominem attack, and if this is what I can expect from your "objective" moderation, my impressions of moderators are already poor.

The reason I do not respond to EVERY post is obvious, and I do not need YOU TELLING ME why I am not responding to them all. You are out of line, moderator.

You have now turned this thread into a personal flame war.
A pity, since you are a moderator.
I remove myself from it.

I will try again in a new thread, and hope the results will be different.

sourdough · 03-17-2003, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soma
but from a monistic viewpoint, "God" is everything that exists

wow,so I AM God,

EggplantTrent · 03-17-2003, 08:18 PM

Quote:

You have now turned this thread into a personal flame war.
A pity, since you are a moderator.
I remove myself from it.

Does this mean you're not going to reply to my post? Because I really am interested in you giving me some clarification on this topic.

EggplantTrent

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03-17-2003, 07:55 PM	#74
Infidelettante Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Deep South Posts: 889	Xian, why do you have a need to prove your God? What does it matter what others think of you and your God. It is so odd that theists seem to have this desire to stand on a level with those they see as godless. You come to this forum and place your God in play as though he were some ball to be knocked about the court to see who does the best knocking. Isn't this some what embarassing for him? I once asked a street preacher how he could sell his god on a street corner as though he were a cheap watch. He replied I don't sell him he's free. I said but, he is still cheap. Why do you theists search out ways to cheapen your God. The atheists and the skeptics and the agnostics will never see it your way. You only make silly what you mean to defend. You deride what you claim to hold dear. Your apologetics do not convince. Your logic does not sway. Your reason does not hold. The very thing you seek is lost in what you do not see. You lower your God to our level. You expose him to our judgement. You allow us to pick at him as though he were some thing we don't want on the bottom of our shoes. What happened to the dignity of the Divine? Is your God more real to you because you make a game of his existence? Will he love you the more for all the quick answers and witty rejoinders? Can you find his grace on message boards? Do you think this magnifies his glory. Do you think this serves his will? Do you think this furthers his purpose? Go to church or volunteer somewhere. Help the poor or the elderly. Don't come here and minimize your God. JT

03-17-2003, 08:08 PM	#77
EggplantTrent Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: earth Posts: 150	Xian, what is the point of all this? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Are you trying to say that there is only one God (which is the christian god or however you define him)? That if you give the IPU j/c god attributes, it is no longer IPU, but the Christian God? Therefore the IPU argument is invalid because when you assign j/c or gpb attributes to the IPU, IPU becomes the j/c god or gpb. So the argument actually turns into "You say that God exists because he is all powerful. But your god exists because he is all powerful"? If I am in error regarding this, then please clarify. EggplantTrent

03-17-2003, 08:14 PM	#78
xian Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 378	" I take that to mean that you choose not to address the points raised. " making an assumption. Despite the fact that I have the most posts in this thread and have responded to several people, nevertheless you put make a personal assumption about me that is unwarranted. "At least you seem to realize that you are saying nothing in favour of a J/C god, or against the IPU." Putting words in my mouth, and an accusatory statement saying I "realize something" when you have no idea what I am thinking, cannot read my mind, and have no moral or logical position to make that accusation. "Of course you will. It just seems that you are avoiding the ones that challenge your original argument - that the statement re: "one less god" is not valid. " More assumption and ad-hominem attack. This remark carries with it a bias that I am incapable of responding to your "superior arguments" and am picking out only the weak ones. This is also an insult to other atheists that I am responding to. You are implying that their arguments were weak and I think you owe them an apology. It seems you are so used to tossing around sublte ad-hominem remarks at Christians, perhaps you don't even notice it? I do not know, except that I noticed it. I resent the accusation that I am dodging arguments because I have limited time, and am being bombarded with responses that I cannot possibly answer them all. That is a low, ad-hominem attack, and if this is what I can expect from your "objective" moderation, my impressions of moderators are already poor. The reason I do not respond to EVERY post is obvious, and I do not need YOU TELLING ME why I am not responding to them all. You are out of line, moderator. You have now turned this thread into a personal flame war. A pity, since you are a moderator. I remove myself from it. I will try again in a new thread, and hope the results will be different.

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