xian

Greetings, Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics and the like. I am here to make a few posts, but mostly I read on the sidelines.

Amateur Atheists have a few arguments that are slapped all over the internet. these arguments show themselves in various forms, yet are all basically the same rehash of the same arguments. All of these arguments are elementary, and easily refuted. I will summarize them below:

1. "Can God make a rock he cannot lift?" attempts to make God into an illogical proposition.

2. "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. " by Stephen Roberts attempts to illustrate the problem of infinite deities and the absurdity of choosing among them.

3. "Then who created God?" attempts to invalidate God by applying the principle of causality on a being defined as infinite and eternal

4. "If God is all Good, then he hates evil. If God is all powerful, then he can stop evil. But evil exists, therefore God is either not all good, and/or not all powerful or doesn't exist." attempts to invalidate God based upon the problem of evil.


Those 4 arguments above are weak arguments. Most educated atheists like Quentin Smith, Heinz Pagels, Jeff Lowder, Peter Atkins and the like, I would speculate wouldn't dare pose such mediocre arguments. For this post, I am going to debunk #2.

let us begin, shall we?

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2. "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. " by Stephen Roberts attempts to illustrate the problem of infinite deities and the absurdity of choosing among them.


before we debunk this, first let us define the Judeo Christian God.

God is simply defined as the greatest possible being possessing the attributes: infinite, sovereign, moral, omniscient, omnipotent, just, etc.

There are an infinite amount of potential deities. 10 seconds ago, you never heard of the Galactic All-Knowing Phase Shifting Purple Jelly Constrictor. THis is a proposed deity and one of the infinite possible Gods that a human mind can conceive of.

A more common variant is the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or IPU as it is commonly called.


Take an invisible pink unicorn, a proposed deity.
Now give it these attributes:

infinite
unlimited
independent
sovereign
moral
omnipotent (properly defined)
omniscient


and you no longer have an invisible pink unicorn

You now have God.


In the same way, take Joseph Stalin.

Now give him these attributes:

American
born on July 6, 1946, in New Haven, Connecticut
make him governor of Texas in 1994
make him 43rd president of the United States

uh oh....suddenly what we have is beginning to look less and less like Joseph Stalin, and more like George Bush.


LET X = ANY PROPOSED DEITY

Give X the Attributes of the Judeo Christian God

RESULT:

X is not equal to what it began as.

X is now equal to God.



I contend that we are both flat earthers. I just believe in one fewer possible shapes for the earth than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible shapes for the earth, you will understand why I dismiss your round one.

I will not be responding to this thread, though I'm sure many fervent responses are to follow. Enjoy!

Dr Rick

Amateur Atheists?

Wyz_sub10

Well, I'll begin by saying that I don't know what your "refutation" is trying to say, other than (seemingly) anything people *think* is god, *is* god.

The point you seem to miss is that your god, in your mythology, *does* things. He is not just an idea, but an active entity.

You can say all "gods" are *the* god, if you're willing to face the inconsistencies of dogma and ideaology that arise from this.

In other words - the J/C god isn't just a string of attributes, but an active force who has done 'a' and 'b'.

You and a Muslim may agree that god/allah is 'a', 'b', and 'c', but will not agree that he *did* this or *said* that.

The argument you mention used by atheists is not used to "debunk" god's existence, but to provide rationale why he/she does not agree with your particular concept of god.

Mageth

Wow, you's got us "amateur atheists" there, I must admit. You just proved all gods can be conflated into one god. Makes the task of lacking belief in them that much easier. Thanks!

Abacus

Do you get paid to be an atheist? If not, you're only an amateur.

AndresDeLaHoz

Judeo-Christian God doesn't have a trademark over those attributes.


Especially since they're not his observed attributes. They're inventions.

Blake

It's good that you told us up front that you won't be responding, but it's still very poor form. This is a discussion board. If you post something, and someone posts a reply, and that's the end of it, that's not really a discussion, is it?

Clutch

uh... if by "fervent" you mean "somewhat baffled", I suppose that's me.

Your point, if there is one, appears to be that things are defined by... er... their definitions. So that if one defined the word "apple" to mean unmarried male human, then the word "apple" would mean what the English word "bachelor" means.

Or, if any expression was given the definition typically given the Christian god -- though yours falls far short of uniqueness, as Wyz points out -- then that expression would be synonymous with "Yahweh".

Okay. That's trivial.

Did you have an argument?

The IPU examples, like the "We're all atheists" line, do not make any point about definition. They make a point about special pleading. They serve to direct the theist's attention to a vast range of equally well (ie, equally badly) evidenced deities that the theist does not seriously entertain a belief in, according to perfectly reasonable epistemic principles that would, if extended without prejudice, rule out the theist's particular cherished belief as well.

None of your remarks seem even vaguely relevant, in other words.

Dr Rick

I'm very optimist about next years draft, however...

Rick

Clutch

Whoa, hold it! Twice now I've been taken out to dinner for free, in return for giving talks on atheism.

I'm a professional atheist, and never knew it!!