Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HoosierGuy28 · 10-20-2002, 01:55 PM

Hello all!

I am a new member of this website, and in case you would like to know more about me, I have written a little about me in the intro section of these forums.

The purpose for me starting this topic is that I would like to have some open-minded discussions with some of you about Christianity, and attempt to answer some of the questions you may have about my beliefs. I intend for this to be a learning experience for others as well as myself.

Some things that I would ask of anyone responding to this:

I welcome your questions, but please do not post a whole list of questions, and try to keep them reasonable. One or two questions is fine with me, and after I have attempted to respond to those, then I will gladly welcome additional questions.

I am not here to argue with anyone about their beliefs or about my beliefs. I am intending for this to be informative to anyone who wishes to respond to me. Our opinions may differ, but that's just a part of life. Just respect my view and I will surely respect yours.

Thank you for taking the time to read this post. I will be looking forward to having some informative discussions with some of you.

Joel (You are more than welcome to address me by my first name)

sakrilege · 10-20-2002, 02:22 PM

Joel,

If jesus died of Friday afternoon and arose Sunday morning this is less than 48 hours. How does this reconcile with his statement that it would be 3 days & 3 nights?

Susan

Bible Humper · 10-20-2002, 02:30 PM

Hello Joel!

Do you use the free will defense to explain the problem of evil and why the deity doesn't intervene directly in the world?

If you do, please <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000641" target="_blank">come to this thread</a> and give me your input. If not, please answer the problem of evil and the question of why the deity hides!

Thanks Joel.

Goliath · 10-20-2002, 02:36 PM

Joel,

Why do so many xians not realize that atheism is not a belief system or a worldview, but rather the lack of belief in the existence of any gods?

Sincerely,

Goliath

K · 10-20-2002, 02:39 PM

Joel,

Do you believe that God condemns people to an eternity of torment for the simple fact that they could not find any evidence to believe in Him?

If so, do you think this god should be called forgiving?

HoosierGuy28 · 10-20-2002, 03:21 PM

Susan,

Excellent question!

I will attempt to reconcile this for you.

There are 2 popular views concerning the question you asked.

First view: Some scholars believe in a literal 3 days and nights (72 hours) in which they suggest Christ was crucified on Wednesday. To justify this, they point out that there is no explanation in the Bible as to what exactly Christ did on this day. Also, these scholars believe that the passover was not a fixed day, so it didn't need to occur on Friday.

Second view: The 3 days and nights are a figure of speech meaning any part of 3 days and 3 nights, which is consistent with other Hebrew writings. For example,

Quote:

Esther 4:16
Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which [is] not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.

and

Quote:

Esther 5:1
Now it came about on the third day that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king's palace in front of the king's rooms, and the king was sitting on his royal throne in the throne room, opposite the entrance to the palace.

As you can hopefully see here, this same type of phrase is not being used as a literal 72 hour period.

Personally, I don't show a preference to either view. I wasn't there, so the best I can ever do is offer reasonable possibilities.

Thanks again for your question.

Mageth · 10-20-2002, 03:36 PM

First view: Some scholars believe in a literal 3 days and nights (72 hours) in which they suggest Christ was crucified on Wednesday. To justify this, they point out that there is no explanation in the Bible as to what exactly Christ did on this day. Also, these scholars believe that the passover was not a fixed day, so it didn't need to occur on Friday.

Luke 24:54 says "54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on." That places Christ's death on Friday (the day of preparation for the sabbath, Saturday).

Second view: The 3 days and nights are a figure of speech meaning any part of 3 days and 3 nights, which is consistent with other Hebrew writings."

The problem is that he was interred on Friday, was in the tomb Friday night, Saturday, and Saturday night, and arose Sunday before dawn. That's "part" of two days and two nights, or at best part of three days and two nights, if you wangle it that way.

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

HoosierGuy28 · 10-20-2002, 03:44 PM

Bible Humper,

Thanks for your response.

Quote:

Do you use the free will defense to explain the problem of evil and why the deity doesn't intervene directly in the world?

I can tell you what my view on this is. I don't know exactly what others are saying, so I'm not going to agree or disagree with them.

What I can say is that free will is a part of it, but I don't believe that's all of it. I believe free will is what made us God's perfect creation. I believe we were created for a purpose, but we are not forced to fulfill that purpose. If God has created us with no free will, we would've been like puppets. Our ability to think for ourselves is what makes us who we are.

Now as far as intervening with the world. I do believe God intervenes, but it is by our faith in which He typically intervenes. If you look at the accounts of healing in the Bible, you will see that faith is what played the key role in the healing.

For Example:

Quote:

Matthew 9:20
And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind [him], and touched the hem of his garment:

Matthew 9:21
For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.

Matthew 9:22
But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

I believe, God gives us the means to get Him to intervene with the world, but a lot if it depends on us. I know some of you do not accept the existence of God, but just for a minute, give Him the benefit of the doubt. Would you intervene on behalf of the world if they denied you and said you didn't exist? Personally, I would take it like a slap in the face.

Now I can tell you from personal experience that God does intervene. I remember the point in my life when I was not a Christian and those times in which I had little or no faith. I see how my life has changed since then, and I would consider myself ignorant if I denied that God intervened and caused these many things to happen in my life.

Thanks again,

Joel

cheetah · 10-20-2002, 03:53 PM

Joel,
I know this could trun into a long answer, but is there anyway you could briefly describe why you have chosen the Christian god over any other? If it is because of emotions (ie you grew up with that god, you live in a Christian-dominated country), do you think those reasons are truly valid? If it is because you have honestly reviewed the religious books and teachings of one or more other religions, can you point out specific, empirical or even anecdotal ways that you found them to be false, but have found that there are not similar false or discordant statements within the religion in which you believe?

Thanks...I've alwasy wondered that. In case you can't tell, I have a secret belief that the reason Christians believe in Christ is because they were influenced at a young age or an emotional time. While I do not know you, I would guess that if you were born to Hindu parents, you might have the same conviction for that religion, etc.

I'll look forward to hearing your most honest answer.

Mageth · 10-20-2002, 03:53 PM

Would you intervene on behalf of the world if they denied you and said you didn't exist? Personally, I would take it like a slap in the face.

So god doesn't hold himself to the "love your enemies", "do unto others...", and "turn the other cheek" credos?

God's not much of a christian, is he?

Followups to this, presupposing god and miracles, are:

1) God obviously does not always answer prayers for healing (or other prayers), no matter how much faith one has. One child dies, another lives. Why is god selective?

2) Lots of faithful people pray for lots of grandiose things like "end starvation in Africa", "bring peace to the world" and such, yet these things exist. Are they too hard for god?

10-20-2002, 01:55 PM	#1
HoosierGuy28 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana Posts: 69	Ask a Christian Hello all! I am a new member of this website, and in case you would like to know more about me, I have written a little about me in the intro section of these forums. The purpose for me starting this topic is that I would like to have some open-minded discussions with some of you about Christianity, and attempt to answer some of the questions you may have about my beliefs. I intend for this to be a learning experience for others as well as myself. Some things that I would ask of anyone responding to this: I welcome your questions, but please do not post a whole list of questions, and try to keep them reasonable. One or two questions is fine with me, and after I have attempted to respond to those, then I will gladly welcome additional questions. I am not here to argue with anyone about their beliefs or about my beliefs. I am intending for this to be informative to anyone who wishes to respond to me. Our opinions may differ, but that's just a part of life. Just respect my view and I will surely respect yours. Thank you for taking the time to read this post. I will be looking forward to having some informative discussions with some of you. Joel (You are more than welcome to address me by my first name)

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10-20-2002, 02:22 PM	#2
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	Joel, If jesus died of Friday afternoon and arose Sunday morning this is less than 48 hours. How does this reconcile with his statement that it would be 3 days & 3 nights? Susan

10-20-2002, 02:30 PM	#3
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	Hello Joel! Do you use the free will defense to explain the problem of evil and why the deity doesn't intervene directly in the world? If you do, please <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000641" target="_blank">come to this thread</a> and give me your input. If not, please answer the problem of evil and the question of why the deity hides! Thanks Joel.

10-20-2002, 02:36 PM	#4
Goliath Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Fargo, ND, USA Posts: 1,849	Joel, Why do so many xians not realize that atheism is not a belief system or a worldview, but rather the lack of belief in the existence of any gods? Sincerely, Goliath

10-20-2002, 02:39 PM	#5
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Joel, Do you believe that God condemns people to an eternity of torment for the simple fact that they could not find any evidence to believe in Him? If so, do you think this god should be called forgiving?

10-20-2002, 03:36 PM	#7
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	First view: Some scholars believe in a literal 3 days and nights (72 hours) in which they suggest Christ was crucified on Wednesday. To justify this, they point out that there is no explanation in the Bible as to what exactly Christ did on this day. Also, these scholars believe that the passover was not a fixed day, so it didn't need to occur on Friday. Luke 24:54 says "54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on." That places Christ's death on Friday (the day of preparation for the sabbath, Saturday). Second view: The 3 days and nights are a figure of speech meaning any part of 3 days and 3 nights, which is consistent with other Hebrew writings." The problem is that he was interred on Friday, was in the tomb Friday night, Saturday, and Saturday night, and arose Sunday before dawn. That's "part" of two days and two nights, or at best part of three days and two nights, if you wangle it that way. [ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

10-20-2002, 03:53 PM	#9
cheetah Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,118	Joel, I know this could trun into a long answer, but is there anyway you could briefly describe why you have chosen the Christian god over any other? If it is because of emotions (ie you grew up with that god, you live in a Christian-dominated country), do you think those reasons are truly valid? If it is because you have honestly reviewed the religious books and teachings of one or more other religions, can you point out specific, empirical or even anecdotal ways that you found them to be false, but have found that there are not similar false or discordant statements within the religion in which you believe? Thanks...I've alwasy wondered that. In case you can't tell, I have a secret belief that the reason Christians believe in Christ is because they were influenced at a young age or an emotional time. While I do not know you, I would guess that if you were born to Hindu parents, you might have the same conviction for that religion, etc. I'll look forward to hearing your most honest answer.

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