Bubba

For what it isn't worth here is why ID is not science.

The job of science is to look for naturalistic causes of things. In that reguard it is a "blind" proposition because it takes no stance on and makes no pronouncements about the supernatural. If God or Allah or the divine purple people eater was upset about this they would present themself in such a way as to be proven and falsified.

Electrical work is a kind of science because I work in the service department of a large electrical contractor. Once I was called out to check a voltage drop problem. I first checked the circuit breaker by moving it to another spot in the panel to see if that was the problem. I then checked the wire by applying 1000 volts to wire with an insulation rating of 600 volts to see if the wire was the problem. Then I examined the conduit run to make sure that no other load had inadvertantly been tapped in. Finally, I checked the electrical panel itself to make sure that I had 208 volts on all 3 phase to phase arrangements. Then I checked to make sure each phase was 120 volts to ground.

Having exhuasted all of my normal checks, was I to assume Intelligent Demons (ID) were the cause of my problems? Would my boss or the customer have listened if I had?

Finally, I checked the buss bar in the electrical panel feeding the circuit. The electrical panel was in a moist room, and in a flash of inspiration I tried cleaning a small amount of corrosion off of the center phase (B Phase) of the panel.

Problem solved.

If I had chosen to blame Intelligent Demons (ID) I would have never found the naturalistic answer I was looking for.

Which is the danger ID poses to science. Even If ID exists, it is better that science does not find it because science has the job of looking for repeatable naturalistic explanations.

But what we do have actual evidence for points to evolution and common descent. We have excellent tyransitional fossils, a pattern of "progression" in the fossil record, the genetic research that has shown a relationship between species, actual speciation in the lab and in nature, Homology, Embyology, suboptimal design, and many more real world evidences that evolution has indeed happened.

In Darwin

Chris

happyboy

you sinner. how dare you use rational thinking? off to hell with you!



happyboy

Bubba

I'd rather burn in hell as a rationalist than lie like Hovind and enjoy eternal bliss with Allah.

Bubba

happyboy

lol me,too, bubba, me too

happyboy

thebeave

Not for me, man. The more I think about it, the more I'm liking the idea of this 72 virgins thing.

bluefugue

The thing about IDers/Creationists is they believe they already have the answer to why life exists, and that answer is supernatural. Therefore any explanation that limits itself to naturalistic causes will be at best incomplete and at worst totally wrongheaded.

Camaban

Even if it does mysteriously work despite being completely wrong

Ojuice5001

Just thought I'd point out that it could well be both. (Not that ID theorists generally realize this.) An intelligent demon might well arrange things in such a way that corrosion takes place, and an intelligent god might well arrange things so that apes in a drying climate evolve into plains-dwelling bipeds rather than becoming extinct. I think all or most supernatural activity is that subtle. So I think that the search for supernatural explanations, properly construed, doesn't hinder the search for natural explanations. But as I said, the ID movement often doesn't understand this.

Tom Sawyer

Although it is theoretically possible that subtle supernatural forces are at work that cause evolution, corrosion, etc to take place there's no reason to believe that this actually happens. All the evidence that is presently available suggests that everything has happened through natural means without any outside interference whatsoever.

It's possible that invisible elves make the water boil for my morning cup of coffee, but I prefer to believe that it's caused by the electrical current that is generated when I plug in the kettle. I can't see either the elves or the current, but I can do tests by plugging and unplugging the kettle, etc to test the electrical current and it all seems to add up to that being the cause. Perhaps the elves are tricky and are only making it look like the electricity is the cause of the water boiling, but until I see some evidence to suggest that, I'm going to assume that they're not involved at all.

It's the same thing with the whole ID debate. Theoretically, a case can be made where it's possible that outside interference is the cause of everything, but until I see some evidence to that effect, I'm going to assume that natural processes are all that's involved.

gymmarty

It's interesting then isn't it, when normally only religious nutters use god/satan/devils/elves or whatever in order to justify or 'prove' a statement, yet in philosophy, where arguably you have some of the most rigorous thinkers around, still use (some philosophers anyway, not all of them) something very similar to "invisible elves" to prop up their arguments on cognition. (see epiphenomenology and qualia)
talk about anthropocentrism!!!!!
It still exists!!! AAARRRGGGHHH